327 thoughts on “Ukraine, Russia, “The West” And What Comes Next

  1. Even on RT it seems both sides do it. The tragic deaths seem to have arisen from old baggage from football teams to politics to create a perfect firestorm of chaos and pay-back. Is there an attempt to draw Putin in on his Red Line? I’m sure there is some, but mostly it’s just hard feelings arising from hardships. Anyone exploiting that is the essence of evil.

    http://rt.com/news/156480-odessa-fire-protesters-dead/

  2. I do have to praise the Ukrainian Fire Brigade though. They brought fire engines with ladders right up to the building and sent firemen inside to rescue people. But even the people they rescued were then set upon by the crowd as the police stood and watched initially. Some of the crowd even attacked the firemen on the rescue operation.

    Ukrainian authorities initially said that many inside the building were Russian nationals but have since backtracked on that and said all the dead identified so far were Ukrainian citizens. We’ll have to wait and see if we get a detailed list of nationalities later.

  3. Oh and BBC/CNN/Fox etc could have carried these scenes live. Very clearly they would be monitoring them in the newsrooms. Equally very clearly they chose not to carry the footage and let people make up their own minds about what they were seeing in real-time.

    After the event the scenes can be edited down. But if you watched the streams from three different broadcasters live you saw a violent hate-filled crowd cheer on the deaths of the Russians trapped inside. Even people who were clearly dead from the fall, after jumping out of the building on fire, were jumped upon and their bodies violated.

  4. I do just love this parallel thread to Craig’s. Have to laugh.

    I see the BiBiC are employing a David Stern to report from Ukraine. He is American and works for an outfit called Global Post. Like ALL BiBiC reporters, I am sure he is giving us a completely fair and unbiased sitrep. 😉

  5. AA; Thanks for your entries. Be careful. You might become the alternet-ive for CM.

    Are you prepared for much grief? 🙂

  6. Live stream from Odessa tv at top of page now. Pro-Kiev side marching through centre of Odessa. Some, but by no means all, carrying weapons.

  7. How long were you watching the feed the other day? There ought to be a pic of you in the dictionary under ‘patience’.

  8. You risk deletion now with something like that, AA.

    The pincer is in place.

  9. Ben,

    I took the hint and didn’t post it over there. It is Craig’s blog and he sets the policy like it or not.

  10. 5 May, 2014 – 1:48 am

    “Please remember that you are an even-handed broker. Isn’t that the crux of your reputation? If ever it were found that you, covertly, maintained a character which would not augment your bona fides as Excellent Whistleblower, what would happen on your speaking engagement bookings? It may be a Win/Win based on the demographics who are most appreciative (edit) in a fiscal way.”

    Following his prescribed policy to this date. Capturing here, although he rarely deletes such things. It’s as though he wants it up because, you see, this poster is obviously nuts. He doesn’t know who I am. Harumph!

  11. Multiple reports that another Ukrainian helicopter has been shot down

    Reports from BBC, Kiev Post, RT and others.

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/anti-terrorist-operation-continues-in-donetsk-oblast-live-updates-346313.html

    Insurgents shoot down Ukrainian helicopter in Sloviansk

    4:44 p.m. — Pro-Russian insurgents shot down a Ukrainian M-24 helicopter in Sloviansk using a heavy machine gun around 2:30 on May 5.

    The helicopter crashed into a nearby river, and the pilots escaped without injury, according to the Defense Ministry’s Facebook page.

  12. Comprehensive timeline on that link, AA. I remember Sarajevo, which had as many civilian casualties (especially snipers, picking off women and children trying to find food and water) as military. It was horrific and unimaginable. However the availability of small arms and heavy ordnance is reduced in Ukraine. Baseball bats are bad enough, but they seem to have less reach and have fewer casualties. I hope that doesn’t change.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo

  13. Disturbing to hear of helicopters being shot down, most likely with this
    http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=692

    or possibly this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strela_2

    Putin would never let seperatists get their hands on these weapons unless he wanted to escalate an already chaotic situation, so its either Russian special forces aiming to provoke, or a very rich and connected oligarch who can conjure up these shoulder launched missiles for his goons.

  14. Here’s the current Russian version of events in Odessa.

    http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/

    Provocation gone wrong: Murky forces instigating Odessa violence?

    Video footage filmed during the bloody events in Odessa that claimed dozens of lives on Friday shows a more complicated picture, with provocateurs instigating the violence.

    Ukrainian authorities blamed the pro-autonomy activists for starting the clashes that led to the tragic fire at the House of Trade Unions. The interior ministry stated that anti-Kiev activists attacked supporters of Kiev authorities before retreating to the building for shelter, and threw petrol bombs at the crowd triggering the fire.

    Russia’s Channel One television reconstructed the chronological order of events using publicly available YouTube videos detailing what happened in Odessa on Friday.

    Taken together with http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Ffrallik.livejournal.com%2F781599.html – there were certainly a lot of people wearing red-armbands and that certainly appears to have included some of the police.

  15. Nevermind,

    There’s video footage now. For whatever reason the helicopter hovered over the same spot presenting an easy target. The Ukrainian authorities claim it was downed by machine gun fire.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctH57Xi4aH8

    There seems to be a burst of flame from the rear of the helicopter about 25 seconds in.

  16. AA; Do you find RT more biased than say NYT? I used to watch RT news on TV before my provider decided to remove from my playlist. I found them much more jacked-in to worldwide news, rather than ethnocentric focus.

  17. Ben,

    When it comes to being pro-Putin/Moscow I think RT is heavily biased but then I expect that. As Craig said once , when not reporting on something of strategic importance to Russia, it is a lot better. Virgin Cable (Branson etc) refuse to carry RT on their network in the UK. However digital terrestrial tv and Sky (Murdoch) satellite do carry it. Yes RT is actually carried on local tv transmitters in the UK. Although for how much longer?

    I try to watch as many sources as possible. Watching Odessa as it occurred on 3 live streams was not pleasant.

  18. Another question, AA. Is that video of the chopper, the one downed?

    The image went behind trees and an explosion occurred. Heavy machine gun or missile in your opinion?

  19. Ben,

    I’m hoping nevermind will comment on the video. Before it goes behind the trees there appears to be flame from behind. Don’t know how far from camera it was but the sound will be delayed by some amount. It is claimed to be the one downed today although obviously I can’t verify that personally.

  20. Missile inventory, if extant, would be low and cost for same is high compared to rounds from a .50 cal machine gun. The hovering made it a sitting duck; easy to pick off with MG and a waste of a missile. But then the report from MG not audible.

  21. http://www.janes.com/article/37330/two-ukrainian-mi-24s-shot-down-by-manpads

    “Although little information is available on the MANPADS used, they are likely to have been an Igla, either the earlier 9K310 Igla-1 (SA-16 ‘Gimlet’), or the later 9K38 Igla (SA-18 ‘Grouse’), which are in service with both the Ukrainian and Russian armed forces.”

    Jane’s makes the assumption, but the list of countries proliferated is large. Only an identifiable part could conclude that. If MoD could supply that, they surely would.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-portable_air-defense_systems

  22. There are reports on twitter that the reason the helicopter was targeted was because it had fired at positions on the ground. Obviously I can’t verify that and haven’t seen any video so far showing that.

  23. Okay. RT has just broadcast report from a stopped train near a tv station. Showed damaged to train allegedly caused by helicopter firing a “rocket” at the train which was being used as a shield by pro-Russians. The helicopter was then subsequently brought down.

    Helicopter appears to fire about 1:32

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G70-bwgZ-M

  24. I wish Craig would take some time to link Sevastapol to the Ukraine, then over to Tartus.

    http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930214000824

    “”A large number of terrorist Takfiri fighters in Syria, who bear Saudi and Chechnian nationalities and receive financial and military backup from the Saudi intelligence agency, have been transferred to the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, on several planes to help the Ukrainian army in its fight against the pro-Russian population,” an Arab security official told FNA on Sunday on the condition of anonymity due to the secrecy of the issue.”

    Takfiris are the bastards beheading the population.

  25. Squonk….

    ” Watching Odessa as it occurred on 3 live streams was not pleasant ”

    Well done though AA… for sticking it out… all that evil, hate filled live feed.

    here is Solid proof of the sort of Sickening things that were going on…

    New video has emerged online which shows a man shooting at the windows of Odessa’s burning House of Trade Unions.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/%E2%80%8Bradicals-shooting-at-people-in-odessas-burning-building-caught-on-tape/5380535

  26. Takfiris are the bastards beheading the population.

    And worse Ben….

    All this free movement of these Monster Terrorists around…Libya, to Syria, to Ukraine…..

    i wish it was all a bad dream…i wanta wake the fuck up out of it… OR Against Carl Sagan’s Advice…Pray for Extra terrestrials to come save us from ourselves.

  27. AA; How many re-makes of War of the Worlds? Peaceful and pastoral films don’t excite the masses, except when it’s adorable little benign creatures like ET.

    Day the Earth stood still was more neutral, like the aliens who were like Einstein’s god ,who sets the world in motion then stands back and observes the handiwork.

    Then there’s this for Stranger in a Strange Land, ” Batman Returns screenwriter Dan Waters was said to have rustled up a screenplay in 1995 for a $160 million movie, but as yet nothing has materialised.

  28. Great Ben..Just re-read Rendezvous with Rama, couple of months ago… all them awards but not sure its his best….

    RE war of the worlds i got a text this very morning on that… apparently the stage show is touring…to be in Glasgow Hydro in November AA… Ben not sure about you’re end Sorry… anyhoo..think i’m under pressure to go…. looks good though… Liam Neeson i think it is in it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0AmEM5o3pQ

  29. Brian; Even though hampered by the limitations of the stage, I always love something live. Especially in music, as I look for some innovation. If they just stick to the standard, I might as well listen to the cd

  30. Some new videos posted at the top of the page (Ukraine thread). Seem to clearly show pro-Kiev mob breaking into Trades Union building before the fire. Please watch it if you can.

  31. I watched the news on Russia Today this morning and fighting is still going on in places like Slavyansk. Unarmed women are manning the barricades in Donetsk, prepared one woman said, to fight with their bare hands, to death if necessary, in support of their menfolk. The west has created another failed state. There will not be elections there I predict. Fascists do not normally believe in elections. Svoboda must have gone down in the ratings one would hope after the right sector killed up to 100 people in Odessa.

    “Svoboda is hardly a fringe organization. In the 2012 election won by the now deposed president, Viktor Yanukovitch, the Party took 10.45 percent of the vote and over 40 percent in parts of the western Ukraine. While the west voted overwhelmingly for the Fatherland Party’s Yulia Tymoshenko, the more populous east went overwhelmingly for the Party of the Regions’ Yanukovitch. The latter won the election handily, 48.8 percent to 45.7 percent.”

    http://bulatlat.com/main/2014/04/02/the-rise-of-the-quasi-fascists-the-dark-side-of-the-ukraine-revolt/#sthash.5Vx5aO58.dpuf

  32. Thanks for the video AA, it shows the helicopter a good mile away andf the first shooting was almost in the neighbours garden. I did not hear a machine gun firing, but the helicopter definately shot a missile at something

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