The General Discussion Thread

[Publish Date updated to restore to front page]

Okay as an experiment here it is. Discuss your favourite generals here!

Well perhaps… Really this is simply the place to post news-items, fun-items or whatever takes your fancy. In short just post what you want here.

It’s just another wee experiment – comments welcome.

Squonk.

[Image: General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett (Stephen Fry)]

17,284 thoughts on “The General Discussion Thread

  1. Node – you say you’ll answer polite questions, but you don’t.

    You say you’re only interested in the truth, and possible you like to think so, but not when it contradicts your asserts.

    Have you ever considered replying to me with anything except snide remarks, insults, and the like?

    If the MODs do read this blog – and apparently they do – you’ve done little to give the impression you’re an honest correspondent.

    Perhaps you could up your game. For instance – your theory that lockdowns have caused the excess deaths we have racked up in this country. Could you explain why deaths peaked and then went rapidly down during this lockdown period? It continued to go down as long as the lockdown was in effect. Not just in the UK, but worldwide.

    Tackle this – honestly, mind! – and we might be well on the way to rehabilitating you.

  2. “…just…”

    Interesting little word, I often feel. I think it tends to indicate subconscious motive, and as such it means the opposite of what it’s supposed to.

    “You are going to continue to do everything you can to fuck me up while claiming you aren’t.”

    (sigh) Prediction, imputation of motive (again!), and misrepresentation of my position! I really do want to discuss with you a that of language, and what your evidence is for your purported centuries-old conspiracy. I’d also like to discuss where you think real science ends, and the stuff you think is fake begins.

    “I wonder if you’re like this in real life …”

    Node, I discovered the conspiracy you’re looking for and it was the most depressing discovery of my life, for we are all conspiring against each other. I saw past the projection of false self-image and saw the underlying id-ego system, and the stratification of society that it creates. This discovery has robbed me of hope for humanity’s future, deprived me of the pleasure of ego competition, and made me unpopular with the majority of people. I am lonely among humans, but feel ready to meet my maker. Peace to you Node <3

  3. Is CM using his dislike of the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians as cover of his hatred of Russia?

    Discovered this in his treatment of annexations and self-determination, my putting Moscow’s treatment of the Crimea in with how Spain has reacted to Catalonia’s demand for self rule, and Scotland’s from London.

    If ever a region qualified for self determination,it’s Crimea.

  4. Really disappointed in posters playing trolls over the arrest of Captain Bob’s daughter Ghislaine, could lift the lid on his murder, that of Pim Fortuyn and other Dutch anti-Islamists, Mossad’s role in the recruitment of assassins like that of the al-Hillis, Israelis using pedophilia of underage children dope addicts for blackmail, and its bring used by Israel to promote its international position.

  5. Honesty in the face of evidence is what science is all about. No wonder some people reject the notion of science outright – too much of an ask.

    I was not expecting much of an answer at all from Node, so he needn’t worry about any disappointment caused.

  6. AA: Mighty long silence on the virus. Any thoughts on the mutation and return to lockdowns in US?

  7. Bozo thinks that his hokes pokes and way with words is better than Big Mouth’s in easing lockdowns on the Fourth of July. Hope he shuts down the public fountains in places like Leister, Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester or it won’t be any better.

  8. I wouldn’t worry about public drinking fountains in the UK any more, Trow – they’re almost non-existent. Just the same with public toilets. Too many councils think they attract the riff-raff and encourage the homeless, and they cost money anyway, so they have almost all been removed.

    After all, if you want to drink water then pay a couple of pounds to have imported water in a small plastic bottle, which you can throw into landfill afterwards (if it’s not lying in a hedge or getting washed out to sea).

  9. Ben, Squonk’s watching SpaceX. Here are some texts he sent me. 23 June:

    Just watched live a fuel tank tested to destruction and a robot dog walk through clouds of boiling liquid nitrogen. Elon Musk hasn’t tweeted the pressure it failed at yet but it did manage to launch itself off the test stand purely on expanding nitrogen. Or to be precise it took the test stand with it.

    30 June:

    – My SpaceX pressure testing of Starship Prototype 5 today has been cancelled. Cameron County in Texas where the build/launch site is issued a fresh lockdown order as “”The COVID-19 virus is spreading rapidly across Cameron County,” the message stated. “Local hospitals are approaching capacity.” “Protect yourselves and your family,” the message stated. “Stay home except for essential activities, wear a face covering and avoid gatherings with people outside your household.””.

    I was asking him to post some more links to epidemiological models because the ICL ones haven’t updated for weeks, but he told me that covid-19 had been getting him down. He says there’s no good exit strategy.

    Actually there is, we could drive it to extinction in three weeks if everyone everywhere took three weeks supplies and strictly isolated for the duration. That’d be it; wiped from the face of the Earth but for laboratory samples. But there’d always be someone who thinks they’re cleverer than that and so it doesn’t apply to them. We know the sort, we get’em here, more’s the pity. So utterly ironic that our big brains, which could lift us to the stars, render us impotent against the mindless conformity of just 32 thousand base pairs of RNA.

    For mutations, have a look here:

    https://nextstrain.org/

  10. “…we could drive it to extinction in three weeks if everyone everywhere took three weeks supplies and strictly isolated for the duration. That’d be it; wiped from the face of the Earth but for laboratory samples. But there’d always be someone who thinks they’re cleverer than that and so it doesn’t apply to them. We know the sort, we get’em here, more’s the pity.

    Indeed, indeed. Heck – they can see what the plot is here – the government all wants them to stay isolated! Well, they’re not having that! How sublime to be so much more clever than “sheeple”. And how effortlessly they become holders of the One Truth.

    So “hugs of death” Goss, with “fake news!” Node will make absolutely goddamned sure this “fake” pandemic turns into one so real, you’ll be very lucky not to lose a close associate or three.

  11. Have you been to the places I mentioned, Glenn, there are a dozen in Leister, and Fred, where does the recycled water come from to start with?

    And Ben, don’t expect AA to tell you what your ordinary senses can say.

  12. “Actually there is, we could drive it to extinction in three weeks if everyone everywhere took three weeks supplies and strictly isolated for the duration. That’d be it; wiped from the face of the Earth but for laboratory samples. But there’d always be someone who thinks they’re cleverer than that and so it doesn’t apply to them.”

    Yes they’d be out there marching arm in arm, waving banners and vandalising statues. If these people won’t conform to the limited lockdown rules what chance would we have with total lockdown.

  13. Glenn, the most damaging “doesn’t apply to me/us” geniuses are the ones with the most power – Trump, Bolsonaro, and Johnson between them have presided over 45% of all covid deaths in the world so far. According to official statistics, that is.

    I see that John Goss has made an exception for Julian Assange…

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/julian-assange-judge-vanessa-baraitser/#post-56065

    “if it’s not lying in a hedge…”

    The turbo on my car failed a few weeks back so I’ve been cycling into town. The amount of litter people just chuck out of car windows…

  14. And wearing plastic shoes, Fred. Don’t forget the plastic shoes. Bloody demonstrators, trying to make some bloody point. Don’t Blacks realise that their poverty and oppression is the price of being better off than their ancestors?

  15. Don’t you love Craig Murray defending his claim about the Russian annexation of the Crimea which led me to leave his site after he and his mods refused to post my claims to the contrary which I shall not repeat here.

    The guy is a web disinformation agent.

  16. Trump, Bolsonaro, and Johnson between them have presided over 45% of all covid deaths in the world so far. According to official statistics, that is.

    So do you believe the official statistics?

  17. N: “So do you believe the official statistics?

    Naturally, you have _better_ statistics. From the _real_ people who know the truth and aren’t faking it like these dratted medics (who are all in on this worldwide hoax – didn’t you hear?).

    Actually – in fairness, I will concede that the actual statistics are going to be far, far worse than those which are “officially” told. Such as when tests results are not given to the public, or local authorities, because it would show unpleasant results:
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/pillar-2-testing-data-local-government-covid-19-test-figures-local-lockdowns-what-explained-460435
    Don’t worry, Node – you’re in good company with your disbelief.

    The company of Trump, Bolsonaro and every far-right “get-back-to-work!” useful idiot they can press into unpaid duty, that is.

    Anyway, did you get around to answering my polite question about why excess deaths fell during the lockdown that you insisted caused it?

    No? Gosh. What a surprise. Try insulting me instead, that’s always a winner in your mind.

  18. Node – “So do you believe the official statistics?”

    Please rephrase the question, because I already told you my position on “belief”:

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/what-is-conspiracy-theory/#post-53332

    Note: “Buster” at my link is Node’s sock-puppet (sigh).

    I think the official covid figures and the official total death figures are the best we have, because they are produced by the most extensive infrastructure. I think their accuracy varies between different places and counties, and generally improves as tests and diagnosis improve.

    But how do you think official statistics are arrived at Node? Or is this a case of “I ask, you answer, punk” like some interrogator in a movie?

  19. “Don’t Blacks realise that their poverty and oppression is the price of being better off than their ancestors?”

    I wasn’t talking about Blacks, I was talking about white upper middle class Marxists trying to overthrow Capitalism.

  20. “Try insulting me instead, that’s always a winner in your mind.”

    Of course you would never do anything like that would you.

  21. What Fred, “vandalising statues” is “trying to overthrow Capitalism”, is it? But that wouldn’t work, would it? Looks more like protest to me. And these folk are “white upper middle class Marxists” are they? Well at least you’ve got it all classified neatly.

  22. Still think we would be better off now with Hillary rather than the Americana-phobe Trump, and she would be in trouble now over the dead Epstein because of all the extra-marital sex her husband had with his women.

  23. Clark Please rephrase the question

    According to you the official statistics say that 8% of people account for 45% of covid deaths. How do you explain this?

  24. It’s surreal. We have Fred, whose outlook could be straight out of the Daily Mail, yet Node, who’s desperately trying to wake up the sheeple who believe everything in the MSM, never questions or contradicts him. They agree that global warming doesn’t matter, XR and BLM are wrong and bad – though their reasoning is diametrically opposed.

    So as it can’t be about the reasoning, presumably it’s about the objective, because in both cases that seems to be “engaging in protests is wrong”. For Fred, it seems, protest is just wrong ‘cos there’s nothing wrong and nothing could be any better, while for Node it seems that everything is wrong and has been for centuries, all information is faked, and if you protest you’re just permitting yourself to be manipulated.

    Both views seem to give primacy to the past and to be blind to the future.

  25. No Node, it’s time that you answered some questions instead. How do you explain it? Trump’s a conspiracy theorist, same as you.

    I’m fed up with conspiracy theorists’ aggressive tactics – set the agenda, ask loads of questions, never give answers, ridicule any answer that’s inconvenient.

    Fred will keep massaging your aggressive, overbearing ego by telling you how much more pleasant, polite and humble you are than anyone committed to fact, but it’s a sham – pushing everything and corralling everyone towards your chosen perspective is aggressive, no matter how politely you do it.

  26. Clark:
    No Node, it’s time that you answered some questions instead. How do you explain it?

    To quote Prof Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health (again):

    “The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.”

    There are other ways of being “generous,” like including cases where no test has been done, creating financial incentives, and just plain lying.

    My explanation is that the huge discrepancies in the mortality rates of different countries is down to how fatalities are recorded. The countries which are most ‘generous’ have the highest rates.

    What”s your explanation?

  27. (sigh) As has already been pointed out repeatedly, that couldn’t explain the rise in overall mortality.

    Your continued refusal to accept facts suggests underlying dishonesty, in addition to your veiled aggression.

  28. Clark. (sigh) As has already been pointed out repeatedly, that couldn’t explain the rise in overall mortality.

    We weren’t talking about the rise in overall mortality. I was answering the question you asked me, ie explain how “Trump, Bolsonaro, and Johnson between them have presided over 45% of all covid deaths in the world so far. According to official statistics, that is.”

    I gave my explanation. Do you agree with me? If not how do you explain it?

  29. Node, reality does not care what you were or were not talking about. The world is not made from your words, nor from some sound bite, cherry-picked from a professor.

    In Europe and the US, the overall mortality curves have risen and fallen with the covid mortality curves. Country after country, state after state, city after city, town after town, on and on and on. I have not compared the two curves for Brazil.

    The most right-wing, populist leaders have been the most dismissive of covid-19, the most gung-ho about the risk; they prepared the least, they acted latest. Most spoke or even acted against precaution, they did the least to help their populations, and the most to coerce the worst paid workers back into unsafe working environments. Consequently, these have the highest death tolls.

    Are you in favour of this?

  30. Is Fred a conservative or a moderate, middle of the road type disgusted with both sides, like me? Although I have less respect for conservatives, it still flows downhill from the septic tank to habitable structures. Yet the purity tests from both sides seems a toxic sludge that is comparable.

  31. Ben, on that yin yan symbol of yours I walk the line through the middle between black and white.

    Clark thinks if someone isn’t in favour of an organisation which has stated aims to abolish the police force they must be a Daily Mail reader.

  32. Clark Node, reality does not care what you were or were not talking about.

    You want to talk about reality, eh?

    Based on your original statement and the relevant figures from 2019, the populations of the UK, USA and Brazil are 9.7 times more likely to die of covid19 than other nationalities, yet there is no media interest in this sensational story, no political point-scoring, no outcry from our medical services, no rush to identify factors which can influence mortality by an order of magnitude.

    This seeming illogicality is consistent with my worldview of globally controlled institutions and media working to a hidden agenda. I am at a loss to understand how you fit it into your reality.

  33. N: ” I am at a loss to understand how you fit it into your reality.”

    I’ve seen this sort of “proof by incredulity” before.

    ‘Well the papers aren’t all screaming that the world is coming to an end for us, so this climate-change thing must all be nonsense.’

    The UK, USA and Brazil are world-beatingly terrible with their response to C-19. We have got far worse figures than anywhere else. That is simply a fact, unless you think these three countries have – somehow! – conspired to make it appear that this is the case, with a complex of deception at every level throughout society.

    That conspiracy happens to coincide with right-wing governments that pretended it was not a problem, acted late and took weak measures.

    You simply reject that as implausible, given there is “no media interest”? That’s quite incredible. It’s being reported on plenty, although likely not in the carefully selected sources you get your (dis)information from.

    Your ability to deny facts is astonishing. Do you reject multiplication tables too? Where does science – particularly medical science – stop, in your view? Is it true to a certain point and then all turns to lies? You have a fascinating outlook.

  34. “I walk the line through the middle between black and white”

    There’s yer problem Fred; the world isn’t so neatly divided. Herein lies your tendency to exaggerate, and to polarise arguments. Such crude simplification is just one similarity with the Mail; there are also your trivialisation of the climate and biodiversity crises, having nothing but praise for capitalism, your consistent support for the status quo, your friendliness towards conspiracy theory, and your application of “balance” between fact and distortion.

  35. I enjoy Chess but do not have extreme skills. I can think maybe 3 moves ahead with my opponents extrapolations being an exponential hazard. But I still enjoy the challenge. I find that the more games played, as against my computer program , the more instinctive I become recognizing patterns.

    I assume this is true of everyone and wonder what we could do if our metabolism did not decline and we lived for a thousand years.

    Then I contemplate living for a thousand years and think of the movie ZARDOZ!

  36. I can only speak for myself Clark but Black versus White just means being beaten black and blue.

    I find the Grey even more abusive because empathy drives it to an untenable position. By that I mean if it is ones nature to see both sides clearly sometimes or most times is difficult to take a strong position.

    It makes you seem weak and its human nature to smell blood in that event, making you treat wounds rather than defend against more wounds.

    My first 25 years were frought with being the arbiter between two arguments. Because I could see both sides I was clear about compromise. But no one appreciated those efforts and often I was targeted by both sides as though I were the problem.

    I finally decided my arbitration should become confrontation and although my status has not improved my self-esteem rose in the ranks.

  37. “the populations of the UK, USA and Brazil are 9.7 times more likely to die of covid19 than other nationalities”

    This premise is wrong. If, like Fred, you divide the world into “black and white”; if you cherry-pick the three worst cases and put them in Box A, and everywhere else in Box B, 9.7 is the figure you’ll get. Doing so is close to meaningless, but it furthers a conspiracy theory. You championed something very similar before:

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/backing-the-wrong-horseman/comment-page-5/#comment-939433

    You need to consider:
    *Timing – when covid-19 arrived and when the fast rise began – covid-19 is still spreading, major populations are still in the process of being exposed;
    *Preparation – whether borders were closed and restrictions initiated in advance;
    *Population mobility – covid-19 is more easily controlled in smaller populations;
    *Testing – most countries have detected only a small fraction of cases, but that fraction varies by orders of magnitude.

    “there is no media interest…”

    There’s a bit but it’s pretty soft, but then the corporate media serves capital.

    “no political point-scoring…”

    There’s a bit but it’s pretty soft, but then the Labour party has just been re-subverted by Blairites. The SNP is doing a fair bit.

    “no outcry from our medical services…”

    There’s a bit and it’s quite acute; eg. try Richard Horton of the Lancet. Some medical staff are making considerable complaint, especially considering how overworked they’ve been.

    “no rush to identify factors…”

    Well your premise was wrong, but everyone knows preparation was neglected and restrictions were poorly designed and came too late. It’s really not very complicated.

    “This seeming illogicality is consistent with my worldview of globally controlled institutions and media working to a hidden agenda”

    The agenda isn’t hidden, in fact it’s championed. It’s called capitalism; specifically, barely regulated financial megacorp capitalism, known as neoliberalism. You don’t need any secret conspiracy; each element of the neoliberal system is doing exactly what you’d expect it to do; capitalising upon the crisis.

  38. Ben, 22:30 – yes, I concur.

    It would help so much if everyone would respect facts, but people learn, first by example, and then they habituate through bitter experience, to push their own perspective, deploying little word games, setting linguistic traps – it’s miserable; polarisation begets further polarisation, disagreements become arguments become fights become battles become wars.

    It bodes far from well.

  39. Glenn, your most recent comment to me is a good example of why I rarely reply. You begin by completely missing the point, then build on your false premise to ‘prove’ some preconception about me, which then ‘justifies’ yet another tedious riff on your tinfoil-hat-variations theme. There’s nothing to reply to.

  40. It’s more than resistance to facts Clark

    It’s Darwinan because people dont like to admit defeat/error

    Culture also augments the thick headed. I remember a Nigerian fellow I saw at business meetings and every time he came by for a chat he simply declared ‘give me a cigarette’.

    Several instances prompted my curiosity ‘Sly, I think I understand why you dont ask for a cigarette…its because in your culture to ask is to appear weak.’

    “Exactly!” He replied

  41. Clark : This premise is wrong. […] if you cherry-pick the three worst cases and put them in Box A, and everywhere else in Box B, 9.7 is the figure you’ll get. Doing so is close to meaningless”

    The premise was yours. I just did the maths. You cherry-picked the three worst cases and put them in Box A, and everywhere else in Box B :

    Clark : Trump, Bolsonaro, and Johnson between them have presided over 45% of all covid deaths in the world so far.

    I think we’ve played this one out. I’m done.

  42. In case my previous comment wasn’t clear enough, I shall restate it with an explanation. The premise that is wrong is:

    “the populations of the UK, USA and Brazil are 9.7 times more likely to die of covid19 than other nationalities”

    Upon that you predicated:

    “no rush to identify factors which can influence mortality by an order of magnitude”

    Covid-19’s mortality rate has not been influenced by an order of magnitude; it is equally likely to kill people of any nationality. The three right-wing populists have simply permitted more of their subjects to get infected in the shortest times.

    Please explain to me how you think this implies a secret global conspiracy with a hidden agenda? It seems to indicate precisely the opposite; their very obvious policies of neglect led to more infection and thus more deaths.

  43. Node, sorry, I overreacted and failed to clarify.

    I chose three countries because the similarity of their leaderships rapidly resulted in high death tolls; it was a casual observation rather than a rigorous statistical assertion.

    But the set of {all other countries} is far more diverse. In particular, it includes counties in which covid-19 became established a bit later and so are just beginning or are less advanced in their fast rises, and countries in which detection rates are low so their high case numbers aren’t showing up.

    The situation is evolving rapidly so the {US, Brazil, UK have 45% of all deaths} situation will not be the case for long. Keep an eye on India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh and Mexico; all have large populations and in all but Pakistan case numbers are rising out of control.

    Of all nine, the UK is an exception in having turned infection rates significantly downwards, but there’s no guarantee that will hold.

    Rate of spread (whether increase or decrease) depends primarily on public behaviour. Good leadership can inspire effective public behaviour, but this is sabotaged by untrustworthy government and media. Governments have vital direct roles in controlling borders and employment conditions.

  44. How tediously typical, Node – you respond in a personally insulting manner instead of answering a very straightforward point. Positively cowardly.

    You enjoy a perverse insistence on concentrating on minutia (“Oh, a doctor somewhere said something which might imply an inflation of numbers in one particular respect”) to dismiss a deadly pandemic. Ignoring the virus kills in large numbers while destroying the economy. We have proof of that.

    It’s working out for them very well in America, particularly in Republican led states where they have your denialist attitudes, don’t you think?

    But never mind facts. You’ve got your “truth” and will stubbornly insist you’re right no matter what. It might make you feel oh-so-special, but the truth is your attitude of smug ignorance enables this virus to kill in larger numbers.

  45. How dysfunctional can Trump be, comparing his campaign against the Democrats to the combat against the Nazis in World War II while threatening to veto the defense budget if it touches Army bases named for Confederate Generals.

    Doesn’t he realize that the Pentagon has been far too unappreciative of how the Generals who defeated Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo were treated, like General MacArthur, Marshall, Patton, Huebner, Ridgway, Cullen, and many others, including my father Brigadier General William Wallace Ford who has a most special case for being renamed for Fort Rucker.

    The POTUS is a certifiable nut case.

  46. The real question, however, is if the government includes Russians as co-conspirators in a future superseding indictment. There were Russians in the chat rooms behind the Stratfor hack. And the existing conspiracy to hack charge is the same charge (though with slightly different counts) as two of the charges against the GRU officers who hacked the Democrats in 2016. Plus, there are repeated references in the Schulte trial about outreach to Russia (these references are quite ambiguous, but I hope to explain why that might be in the nearish future); I had heard about that outreach before it was publicly disclosed.

    When the government made its last ditch attempt to get Hammond to testify before the grand jury, according to Hammond’s account, they twice claimed to Hammond that Assange was a Russian spy. And when he asked why Assange wasn’t charged in the 2016 hack-and-leak, the prosecutor appears to have suggested the extradition would take a long time, which might mean they could add those charges in a superseding indictment.

    If the government eventually argues that Russians were part of this conspiracy from very early on, then the charges will look very different if and when Assange gets extradited.
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/07/05/the-growing-wikileaks-conspiracy-indictment/

  47. Don’t think that Putin interfered in the 2016 except to check Hillary’s emails to see if there was any indication of serious crimes as part of Trump’s collusion efforts. and when he found none, he so informed him.

    Did Boris die with his virus, and has come back as Boris Yeltsin?

  48. Ben, I read the Emptywheel article you linked.

    What is it that Assange has actually done, or that you think he has done, that you think was wrong?

  49. He aided his hate of Clinton to derail an election and abetted an American upheaval unleashing a despot to, among many other things increasing American dead by mishandling a viral infection by insisting it was a hoax.

    Shall I expand Clark?

  50. You need to find ways of defending your friend Craig Murray that dont impinge on the facts, clark.

    You are loyal as a friend but your mistake is putting your allegiance on personality Cults rather than ideas

  51. “Shall I expand Clark?”

    No, the opposite. Focus.

    I agree that was the course of events, but what did Assange do?

  52. Sorry to have gotten my name totally wrong on my last post. It carried over from my uncorrected post.

    Putin knows that almost all Anglo-Americans hate the Russians, even those who have had to seek Moscow’s sanctuary when they learned that their bosses suspected them of being Russian agents, like Edward Snowden, Gareth Williams and Gudrun Loftus. He still deals with them, according to the facts as best he can.

    London and Washington become certifiable nut cases when it come to anything that can be blamed on or denied to Moscow.

    Russia has no right to exist.

  53. Good question, Clark. I think it was the handling of the Afghan File that Williams and Loftus had got together for the media.

    Assange was blamed for handing it over without deleting the names of German soldiers. It was as if the Taliban was readng The Guardian and the New York Times for targets to attack who were stealing the populace out of basic needs.

    And Williams and Loftus were killed because their authorities were treating them as enemy agents.

    Some authorities!!

  54. If there were not so many crazy things going on in the world, I would be writing a book about how old farts like me are doing with the coronavirusi about staying home, going to the emergency room or bedding down in some hospital when almost all suggestions are wrong, plus bad advice about to make your body stronger to deal with difficulties.

    You will just have to learn for yourself if you live that long.

  55. ‘Focus’

    Clark: I am at a loss to lead you to a conclusion you obviously reject with prejudice. Did you know I supported his efforts before he went Barmy?

  56. Ben: I have to admit to some surprise at the degree of coincidence involved, when the Podesta emails dropped just 20 minutes after Trump’s “pussygate” scandal hit the wires. If that was an innocent cross-over, and Wikileaks had no idea because they were too busy setting up the Clinton hit-piece at the time, then Trump must be the luckiest SOB in politics of my lifetime.

  57. Ben, I read your first two links, deferring comment until after you replied. The third is broken, but it’s just a search anyway (though it does leak that you’re using the Chrome Mobile browser on a Samsung Android), and the Baltimore Sun have blocked access in the UK, though the link looks like it’s only to a reader’s letter, which could be from anyone, eg. a spook.

    Sorry Ben, really genuinely sorry to say this to you, but you’re falling hook, line and sinker for the Establishment’s trap, which is – “blame Assange and the Russians for the whole damn mess”, or if we include the unspoken subtext, “blame Assange (who we will crucify for you) and the “Russians” (our default scare-the-people enemy since 1945 that we can do fuck all about) but absolutely not us, the Establishment, and our Toxic System that deceives, oppresses and exploits all of you continually for the whole damn mess”.

    Sorry, what follows is a multi-faceted deconstruction of what’s really going on; in short, the system dominates the individuals it’s comprised of.

    Why does the US have simple plurality voting? For the same reason that the UK does – its inherent positive feedback virtually guarantees a two-party hegemony. That means that the Establishment only needs to dominate two entities to be assured of domination of the nation. That’s their second best option after dictatorship / absolute monarchy.

    The “news” media, which is the Establishment’s propaganda organ, serves a number of important functions for the Establishment. It conditions certain patterns of thought – individualism, and the primacy of individuals in global affairs. For example, science is constantly presented as didactic truth statements from authority figures in white coats with lots of letters after their names, when science is really about evidence. Evidence is the last thing the Establishment want the people thinking about, because the people would be empowered and might rise up. When the science indicates something inconvenient to the Toxic System (eg. global heating), why, easy! Just find a dissenting white coat and apply journalistic balance – and you’ve instantly downgraded a global emergency requiring immediate system-change into merely a “controversy”, a “debate”. Fact gets displaced by opinion, and the Establishment have the audience back on their home territory; politics.

    What does Wikileaks publish? Evidence!

    So what’s the Establishment’s target? Wikileaks!

    But that would be too blatant, and not the ideally manipulable propaganda format of individualism, so – Demonise Assange! But make no mistake, Wikileaks is the target; Assange is just the entry point. My evidence? From your Emptywheel link:

    “The government also refers to Daniel Domscheit-Berg (WLA-2), Jake Appelbaum (WLA-3), and Sarah Harrison (WLA-4) in a way that treats them as co-conspirators”

    Appelbaum has already been stitched up on a sexual “controversy”, and consequently demoted from the TOR project – his replacement has worked with defense contractors or something. Domscheit-Berg was hit by an anti-Semitism “scandal”. Any of this looking familiar? Richard Stallman was recently hit by a sexual “scandal” and has thus been forced out of MIT and the FSF. Craig’s on a contempt of court charge. Aaron Swartz was driven to suicide because he wouldn’t turn informant – again from Emptywheel:

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/03/12/hours-before-she-attempted-to-kill-herself-prosecutors-may-have-told-chelsea-manning-that-julian-assange-is-a-russian-spy/

    And every one of the US security services’ “anti-Assange” (really anti-Wikileaks) “witnesses” are compromised by criminality.

    The Assange operation is just one aspect of an attempted complete take-down of the transparency and anti-war movement.

    Ben, I know Trump is a disaster for the people of the US, and I truly sympathise. Johnson is a disaster for the people of the UK. But I really, really need you to keep a cool head and look at this dispassionately. “The higher you fly, the faster you fall”, and the Western alliance has flown so high, dominated so much – the fall is proving very scary for us ordinary folk who just happen to live in the home lands of these power centres.

    https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2016/12/23/news/assange_wikileaks-154754000/

    “My conclusion is that most power structures are deeply incompetent, staffed by people who don’t really believe in their institutions and that most power is the projection of the perception of power. And the more secretively it works, the more incompetent it is, because secrecy breeds incompetence, while openness breeds competence, because one can see and can compare actions and see which one is more competent. To keep up these appearances, institutional heads or political heads such as presidents spend most of the time trying to walk in front of the train and pretending that it is following them, but the direction is set by the tracks and by the engine of the train”

  58. “You need to find ways of defending your friend Craig Murray that dont impinge on the facts, clark.”

    At least Craig is consistent in the people he promotes Ben. Pussy grabber Trump, sex pest Salmond and Assange, who was leading two women to believe they were the only one in his life so he could have sex with both of them.

  59. Has Russia arrested for treason Ivan Safronov, spokesman for its space program head, for telling Washington when and where its joint program with China to go to the moon will occur, explaining the confrontation it is having in the South China Sea with the USA. The timing and place of the liftoff will apparently be changed.

  60. So Trump is pinning his re-election by winning the cultural war, fighting the Civil War all over again – what seems to be a losing strategy.

    So what is really going on? There ain’t going to be any election.

    We are going to have a war, apparently with Russia and China.

  61. Daily Mail, obsessed with sex; check!

    C’mon Fred, we need daily updates of all the inanimate objects that cause or cure cancer.

  62. Fred, for a man who promotes Brian Spanner (who in turn makes jokes about FGM), you are nothing if not inconsistent! Lol

  63. It’s a foolish consistency, Fred.

    Clark: I fear an impasse has again raised its ugly visage between you and I.

  64. Looks like the US was planning to shoot down the Russian space craft going to the moon on take off, like the IBM which was expected to take off if Moscow reacted to the set-up of the Palme assassination but proved impossible when the NASA space craft Challenger blew up on take off, and thanks to counter measures that Moscow had developed because of American spies like Rick Ames.

    This time Moscow was tipped off by suspected American spy Ivan Safronov. Without his spying, no one would know why it just blew up on take off.

    What haooens now us anyone’s guess.

  65. Ben, Wikileaks followed their stated policy – if they receive genuine material in the pubic interest, they publish, and that’s what they did.

    Allegations of Russian government computer penetration were not made until well after publication; when Wikileaks received material, Guccifer 2 was considered to be a Romanian. But the source makes no difference anyway, because if Wikileaks receive genuine material in the pubic interest, they publish.

    The original extradition request concerned only publication; it was contrary to the US constitution. This new extradition allegation of conspiracy concerns the Stratfor disclosure, a private company, and nothing to do with the DNC material.

    All the “evidence” that Guccifer 2 may be a Russian state operation comes from secret spying organisations. All the “evidence” that Assange asked hackers to penetrate the computers of private companies comes from witnesses compromised by criminality, but it is not relevant to the DNC material anyway. The whole case stinks as bad as the Swedish nonsense.

    Assange did indeed express opinions about Hillary Clinton, but everyone is entitled to express their opinions. You should be upholding the US Constitution, Ben. Wikileaks published factual material about prominent Democrats, filthy secrets that those Democrats would rather have withheld from the voters, and that material influenced the vote – That’s democracy Ben, that is how democracy is supposed to work.

    Your gripe should be with the Democrat Party for fielding a Saudi-sponsored candidate who arranged for the devastation of Libya:

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/03/the-invasion-of-bahrain/

    The Invasion of Bahrain
    14 Mar, 2011 in Middle East by Craig:

    “A senior diplomat in a western mission to the UN in New York, who I have known over ten years and trust, has told me for sure that Hillary Clinton agreed to the cross-border use of troops to crush democracy in the Gulf, as a quid pro quo for the Arab League calling for Western intervention in Libya…

    So what’s your position Ben? US citizens matter, everyone else can get fucked, and fuck the Constitution too? The chickens have come home to roost… in the form of Trump. I’m truly sorry for your personal situation along with all US citizens, but there was no good viable option under the US’s designedly corruptible system; a bad outcome was unavoidable by the time the candidates were decided – and that’s what your target should be! – The enormously powerful and expertly corrupted system, and absolutely not the hapless individual being scapegoated precisely because he exposed some of it.

  66. “14 Mar, 2011 in Middle East by Craig:”

    Was that the same Craig that claimed the leaked emails were given to him on a memory card in Washington by a Democrat insider?

  67. And Ben, I hope you can see from what I’ve written that my opposition to extradition is not because Assange is a friend of a friend; it’s because he’s again being scapegoated with a phony case designed primarily to influence opinion, to demonise him as a “Russian spy”. This case is psychological torture in public; Assange is being made an example of to scare anyone from revealing political corruption, it’s a disgusting display of public bullying by the most powerful entity on Earth.

  68. Fred, yes it is, and William Binney, whistleblower and NSA Technical Leader for Intelligence, 2001, by analysis of time stamps, confirmed that the e-mails had been copied to a device formatted in the Microsoft FAT32 filing system as used on USB memory sticks, and that the transfer rate was consistent with USB memory devices rather than international Internet transfer. Binney’s claim can be verified by anyone, directly from the published e-mails on the Wikileaks website.

    The US authorities have declined to interview Craig.

  69. Binney’s work shows that the final transfer of the e-mails was almost certainly by USB memory device, yet the US intelligence agencies completely omit this fact in their account of the e-mails’ journey to Wikileaks.

    That is a major omission, almost like they made the whole thing up assuming that no one would notice.

    Thanks Fred, I’d forgotten to mention that.

  70. 19:00, 12 April 2020‎ RyKlefJean talk contribs‎ 23,293 bytes -145‎ Removed sentence “Binney later rejected that the manipulated documents were valid and concluded that they did not support the inside-job theory.” Binney was quoted out of context, has clarified : (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3cDZU9Tp7w) , (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/08/15/nsa_whistleblower_bill_binney_intel_agencies_are_lying_to_the_public_and_the_president.html), (https://larouchepac.com/20190226/bill-binney-and-larry-johnson-shred-robert-mueller-s-russian-hack-fable). undo
    curprev 15:52, 9 April 2020‎ Amkgp talk contribs‎ 23,438 bytes +145‎ Reverted 1 pending edit by RyKlefJean to revision 939882168 by Philip Cross

  71. Fred, I’ll read it at some point but it makes no difference, because the e-mails are genuine, even if it was the GRU that obtained them.

    Think of it the other way around. Say that before an election in Russia, the CIA succeeded in obtaining Putin’s e-mails, posted them to Wikileaks and it caused an opponent to be elected. So what? That’s how democracy is meant to work, and free news media is essential in that process.

    If the Kremlin then attempted to extradite Julian Assange to Moscow because Wikileaks published Putin’s e-mails, it would be condemned as political suppression of the news media.

  72. “Fred, I’ll read it at some point but it makes no difference”

    It makes a big difference to the reliability of Craig and his “inside information”.

  73. And if the only viable opposition to Putin was an incompetent idiot conspiracy theorist, how would that be Wikileaks’ fault, let alone Assange’s?

  74. You’re still attempting to discredit individuals instead of addressing the evidence in the e-mails, so I’ll assume that’s all you’re left with.

    Claims from anonymous sources must always be treated with caution. But various examples from Craig that I remember have gained credibility by being consistent with facts that emerged later, and this is a perfect example; Craig posted in 2011 that:

    “Hillary Clinton agreed to the cross-border use of troops to crush democracy in the Gulf, as a quid pro quo for the Arab League calling for Western intervention in Libya”

    ..and the e-mail leak confirmed that Clinton was so supportive of the devastation of Libya that her circle referred to it privately as “Hillary’s war”. One investigation into the leaks was even called the “Benghazi Investigation”. That would also be a major incentive for an anti-war DNC insider to leak the e-mails, would it not? In the interests of informed democracy.

  75. “You’re still attempting to discredit individuals instead of addressing the evidence in the e-mails, so I’ll assume that’s all you’re left with.”

    Well it isn’t as if I’ve accused anyone of being a Daily Mail reader is it?

    “Claims from anonymous sources must always be treated with caution. But various examples from Craig that I remember have gained credibility by being consistent with facts that emerged later, and this is a perfect example;”

    Strange because I’ve found his insider information usually turns out to be bullshit.

  76. 2011: Craig blogged that Hillary Clinton brokered a deal to overlook Saudi suppression of pro-democracy demonstrations in Bahrain, and in return the Arab League would call for Western intervention in Libya. In 2016 the DNC e-mail leak revealed that Hillary Clinton was a major proponent of the Western attack on Libya. Craig’s inside information was thereby confirmed.

    2011: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/10/the-real-werritty-scandal/

    “This information comes straight from a source with direct access to the Cabinet Office investigation into Fox’s relationship with Werritty.

    Gus O’Donnell, Cabinet Secretary, has fixed with Cameron the lines of his investigation to allow him to whitewash Fox”

    Fox was forced into resignation, confirming Craig’s initial exposé, but he was appointed Secretary of State for International Trade in 2016, confirming the whitewash.

    2015: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/11/cameron-overreaches-with-70000-claim-nobody-believes/

    “The truth is the military tends to be much more honest about these matters than the spooks. Rather than make the same mistake again, parliamentarians should be calling Laurie’s successor, Air Marshal Philip Osborn, to ask him the truth about the nature, composition and availability of the 70,000. I happen to know that signals of dissent from Osborn’s staff – quite probably with his blessing – are reaching not just me, but many Tory MPs.”

    Cameron lost the vote, and it is now well known that the war in Syria is motivated primarily by the Gulf Monarchies’ territorial ambitions.

    I could go on and on…

  77. BLM aim to destroy our history, culture, religion and pave the way for a Marxist takeover.

    Not your Fred, it’s Nigel Farage.

    “Cultural Marxism” was Nazi Party propaganda and remains a conspiracy theory trope of the extreme right. It’s meaningless, mostly aimed at liberals and said by people who have no idea what marxism is. You know, the people who can’t quite be honest about who they are. Those who whine, I’m not racist but but but immigrants, paedo gangs, black lives matter! Those who whine the law must be applied equally to statue topplers but have never had anything to say about the day to day application of the law against minorities.

    I never said Seig Heil tho guv did I? OK, yes, that time caught on camera but it was a joke. Can’t you take a joke? Typical cultural Marxist. Banning my free speech. I’m nothing like a Nazi. You cultural marxist! The Scots are OK as long as they obey English toffs. Except the SNP. Bloody cultural Marxists. BTW I’ve checked the history books and it is a solid gold fact that I nor any of my ancestors going back to the beginning of time ever have ever ever benefited from the exploitation of anyone ever. Bloody classroom cultural marxist tripe. We gave them trains! Bloody blm marxists. I just want the police to kick the shit out of the lefties and darkies. I am not a Nazi. I have nothing in common with Nazis. That’s just a cultural marxist lie.

  78. Now they want to ban faulty towers! Extinction Rebellion marxists! I’ve checked the big book of facts and It’s a solid gold fact that no darkies ever go on a blm demo/riot. It’s marxists! All the way down!

  79. Don’t you love how British spooks clear the decks when talking about anything serious, and writers pass it along in their books about them.

    Gordon Corera has illustrated this in talking about China and of course Hong Kong in his Art of Betrayal: The Secret History of MI6.

    There is hardly any mention of them. Nothing about alleged British business man Neil Heywood trying to take over the regime through his dealings with members in its central committee or the troublemakers at Tianamen Square.

    All he could say about Hong Kong was that being an island, it was like Malta in controlling Albania during the early stages of that Cold War.

  80. ‘“Cultural Marxism” was Nazi Party propaganda and remains a conspiracy theory trope of the extreme right. It’s meaningless, mostly aimed at liberals and said by people who have no idea what marxism is.’

    Patrisse Cullors, co founder of BLM says she and her fellow founders are trained Marxists.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEUbSzOTZ8

    I only call them what they call themselves.

  81. Showing more of your roots, Fred?

    Cultural Marxism also was also the slogan of several others, like the lib-labs, right Labour, and followers of Neville Chamberlain who believed “Better Hitler than Stalin” which almost got us all killed.

    My family did more than its share in stopping him.

  82. Nothing can be mo re absurd than the behavior of Hong Kong residents allowed by the Five Eyes nations, not New Zealand apparently. A resident can spy on China, organize a plot to overthrow its regime, or a conspiracy of some other criminal nature with no fear of extradiction.

    The world is becoming a haven for criminals

  83. “My family did more than its share in stopping him.”

    More than Churchill? Who’s statue was one of those vandalised?

  84. Wish Fred would stop being an apologist for fascism. It drags the blog down.

  85. Poor Fred, thinks he has uncovered some “cultural marxism” just because he found a marxist doing something. However, a marxist doing things is not “cultural marxism”.

    You don’t get to pretend that “cultural marxism” is not a Nazi conspiracy theory. Every time you use it you use the language of Nazis. And you use it to attack poc and the left. Just like Nazis do. And it inevitably becomes hard to differentiate between those who talk up the ideas of Nazis and, you know, Nazis.

  86. So, we have established that BLM, by their founders own admission, is a Marxist organisation. They are obviously not an economic Marxist organisation. So tell me what kind of Maxist are they?

  87. Occasionally I make Limoncello and share with close friends. I choose not to filter it and even though kept in a freezer, it needs to be shaken to redistribute the remaining solids and it remains cloudy.

    I find its character is improved by its lack of clarity which some would say lacks ‘purity’

    Purity tests lack an element of character necessary for humans as well.

  88. My father’s division got up to a million Germans to surrender before the official surrender, something I am sure Churchill never experienced for which General
    Patton had the highest praise.

    Though no statue was ever built for him, he got vandalized in Dallas by having paint thrown at him, the highest ranking officer to finally oppose the Vietnam War.

    He never was named for Fort Rucker, a Confederate colonel who did little except kill many Union soldiers, who established the air training program the base was assigned to perform.

  89. Moderates tend to be Equalizers in discussions with either right leaners or left. We take an oppositional stance to level the the out-of-whack conversation. But that doesnt mean the passion is moderate. We take heat from both ends and that takes most of the carbon from our iron for a nice nickel steel outcome.

  90. Do you, like me, believe in the right of free speech Ben?

    One thing I’ve found common to both the far left and the far right is that they both think they have the right to silence anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

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