The General Discussion Thread

[Publish Date updated to restore to front page]

Okay as an experiment here it is. Discuss your favourite generals here!

Well perhaps… Really this is simply the place to post news-items, fun-items or whatever takes your fancy. In short just post what you want here.

It’s just another wee experiment – comments welcome.

Squonk.

[Image: General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett (Stephen Fry)]

12,179 thoughts on “The General Discussion Thread

  1. Glenn_uk, 3:53 pm; yes, Angel, Crystal and Indigo Children – well weird. I don’t really object to this stuff much. It’s the woo that masquerades as science, the sort of stuff that Scouse Billy promotes, that I dislike the most. I don’t really know much about Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, but my feeling is that evolution is very unlikely to have produced a high proportion of dysfunctional children, so something is wrong in the environment, parenting, nutrition or the diagnosis, or some combination thereof.

    Ben, 4:30 pm; back in the mid to late ’90s I had both a dog and a cat, and they used to share the sofa. A dog and a cat make a good team if they learn to get on. The cat can relax because other cats won’t come near the dog. I’m not sure what the dog gets from it; maybe just company.

    Ben, 7:03 pm; I assume you’re referring to my invitation that Uzbek in the UK look at this thread. I know you’ve taken a dislike to Uzbek; wrongly, I think. I suspect that Uzbek can hardly believe that loads of regular contributors apparently support Russia over Ukraine. Uzbek has experienced the Russian oligarchy first-hand, and knows its evil inhumanity. I posted that invitation because Macky has been interrogating him on his anti-Zionist credentials! Ben, it’s crazy. Uzbek in the UK has absolutely nothing to do with Israel, and Macky just wants to try and fit Uzbek into Macky’s intellectually lazy “conspiracy of Zionists” theory.

    C’mon, Ben, If you went to Russia and a bunch of Russians who’d never experienced the US told you that house repossessions and US policy towards Haiti were good things, you’d probably start calling them mad, too. I think you should take more note of what Uzbek has to say, because, Gonzo-journalism style, he’s really lived it.

  2. Phil, good to see you back. It’s true, that was the rumour. The thing I wondered, if someone’s naked, how can you tell they’re transvestite?

    I found an odd little thing out in the woods one day. Someone had built a harness thing, rope and leather straps, suspended from saplings. It had four adjustable loops that were presumably for legs and shoulders. On the ground beneath was a large plastic sheet, on which there were latex gloves, a bottle of lube, and various objects presumably for insertion. Lots of soiled tissues laying around.

  3. Eugh. Eeeugh. Eeeeeeeeeeeugh. I am never going to the woods again. Not even if you promise naked transvestites.

  4. “Fred, fwiw I find you consistent and sensical when commenting on CMs blog. Don’t get annoyed at being dissed by Craig. Jesus you should see what he has called me in the past. ”

    It’s something I encounter a lot. Someone will say something like the Arabs are trying to push the Jews into the sea and I’ll give them the facts about how many Palestinians are crammed into the Gaza strip, show them the maps of how Israel has expanded over the years, how Palestine has shrunk.

    Then they say I must be saying that because I’m antisemitic.

    Craig is doing the same thing, rather than accept that an oil field is actually closer to England than Scotland I must be crazy. I must be finding fault with SNP policy because I hate independence not because I actually believe it is wrong.

    Whenever there is conflict between what people want to believe and reality they always put the blame on me. That is why right from the start I have had a zero tolerance policy on personal comments and shoot them down in flames, I’ve played this game so many times before.

  5. Fred, when you wrote that there was no maritime boundary between English and Scottish waters Craig said; “Sometimes you are plain crazy. The thing is enshrined in (albeit secondary) legislation”:

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/belated-self-congratulation/#comment-445975

    Considering that we’ve all seen the piece of legislation, it was a pretty crazy thing to say. You then continued, but saying there was no such national boundary. This I suppose gets you off the hook a bit, but it really wasn’t honest. Then you asserted that the boundary is concerned only with fishing, which is not true.

    Craig also wrote; “Your hatred of independence appears often to affect your reasoning, which on other subjects is often very good

    Seeing as you virtually called Craig a liar, and implied he was incompetent on a matter on which he is an expert (maritime boundaries), I think Craig has treated you a lot better than you have treated him.

    Fred, I’m surprised you’re so opposed to Scottish independence. You’ve been arguing on behalf of the Palestinians for years. As the UK nuclear weapons are located in Scotland, Scottish independence bids to change the power balance of the entire world; this is why so many powerful political, media and commercial bodies are propagandising so heavily against independence.

  6. Phil, I wish I’d caught them at it! I carried a camera on my daily walks back then; I was trying to get photographs of muntjac deer. I can just imagine the pandemonium I could have created, advancing across the clearing towards the saplings with the camera’s flash going of as fast as it could recharge. They wouldn’t have been back in a hurry.

  7. @Clark

    Hasn’t it sunk in yet? What Craig said about maritime boundaries was blatantly not true.

    There is no national maritime boundary between Scotland and England.

    The oil fields he accused Westminster of stealing are closer to England than they are to Scotland.

    What he said about enshrined in legislation was just waffling. The legislation is just about fishing limits.

    These are verifiable facts. Sorry if they contradict what you want to believe.

  8. Clark wrote:

    You’d have told us if there were any more Skyking EAM messages, wouldn’t you?

    It remains unusually busy on USAF HFGCS. Not all of the time but in bursts. Lots of new call-signs as well.

    Some USAF radio operator actually had to read out a coded message “For PINK ELEPHANT” the other day.

    The webchat box at the utwente websdr (best for listening to USAF HFGCS unless you have your own receiver) is now down because of “inappropriate content”

  9. Fred, it isn’t a matter of what I “want to believe”. Craig linked to the PDF of the legislation. It says:

    STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
    1999 No. 1126
    CONSTITUTIONAL LAW
    DEVOLUTION, SCOTLAND
    The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999
    […]
    Boundaries – internal waters and territorial sea
    3. For the purposes of the Scotland Act 1998, the boundaries between waters which are to be treated as internal waters or territorial sea of the United Kingdom adjacent to Scotland and those which are not, shall be-
    [boundary details…]
    Boundaries – sea within British fishery limits
    4. For the purposes of the Scotland Act 1998, the boundaries between waters which are to be treated as within British fishery limits adjacent to Scotland and those which are not, shall be-
    [boundary details…]

    So this document concerns constitutional law for the devolution of Scotland. It is concerned with territory, and also with fisheries.

    Fred, of course there’s no “national maritime boundary” yet, because Scotland is still part of the UK. But none the less, this document defines the extent of Scottish waters.

    Craig claims that this boundary is used in the GERS report to allocate oil revenue between Scotland and England. I currently believe him and will continue to do so unless you show me evidence to the contrary. At present, from my perspective, Craig seems honest and correct whereas you Fred do not.

  10. Fred, the one point on which you may be right is that some or all of the oil fields under discussion may be closer to England than to Scotland. But this is only one factor in the determination of maritime boundaries. The shape of the coastline and extension of the land border are others that Craig has mentioned. Ultimately such borders are negotiated, and simple proximity does not by itself determine which territory a given position fall in.

  11. Clark has made two comments that I will now address, but solely for the benefit of those who have been interested enough to follow the exchanges so far;

    Clark; “Ha! That’s exactly Craig’s objection to the virtually instant referendum in Crimea! The question is particularly loaded with the influx of Russian military into Crimea; binary question (chosen by Russia without debate), loaded weapons.”

    1. The Crimean Referendum cannot be looked at in isolation, and divorced from the Western supported Coup in the Ukraine; the Referendum was the direct consequence of the Coup; context is everything.

    2. The majority population of the Crimea are Russians, who have the right as codified in the UN Charter to seek self-determination; this they did, and those that seek to declare void a literally transparent Referendum, using the excuse of the presence of the legally stationed per-existing Russian troops based there, need to explain what real practical difference this “Yes” vote has with the “Yes” vote that everybody agrees will always be the inevitable result any referendum held there, regardless of the whetever Russian troops are there or not.

    3. The only real difference of course, is the one that the Referendum critics shy away from mentioning, namely the longer the Referendum was delayed, the more opportunity was available for US sponsored asymmetric attacks, probably through the funding & encouraging of Jihadist terrorists attacks in the Crimea, in order to create conditions in which holding any Referendum would be impossible; the Russians were of course aware of this threat, which is why they ensured that the Referendum took place as quickly as it did.

    Clark; “Ben, 7:03 pm; I assume you’re referring to my invitation that Uzbek in the UK look at this thread. I know you’ve taken a dislike to Uzbek; wrongly, I think. I suspect that Uzbek can hardly believe that loads of regular contributors apparently support Russia over Ukraine. Uzbek has experienced the Russian oligarchy first-hand, and knows its evil inhumanity. I posted that invitation because Macky has been interrogating him on his anti-Zionist credentials! Ben, it’s crazy. Uzbek in the UK has absolutely nothing to do with Israel, and Macky just wants to try and fit Uzbek into Macky’s intellectually lazy “conspiracy of Zionists” theory.”

    Uzbek has been arguing that the Russians are exceptionally bad & cannot be trusted because they are inherently chauvinistic, indeed he tried to validate this by going centuries back in the historical record. My highlighting & drawing out of Uzbek’s racism towards Russians, by exposing his hypocrisy in refusing to acknowledge that the Russians are no more chauvinistically incline than others especially when compared to the chauvinism that is in some cases actually openly State cultivated/promoted, as in the examples of the “Chooseness” of the Jews, or the “Manifest Destiny” doctrine of the Americans, or even “The White Man’s Burden” of the British Empire.

    (Take comfort at least Ben, in the comical puzzlement of those who find themselves in the minority !, and amusement in the folly of somebody actually inviting others to come & view their own credibility car-wreck !) 😀

  12. Phil

    Sounds very interesting indeed…Keep it up.

    wish i could claim to be an expert in the field… i got into the American first peoples… and first nations ect…then Migrated myself – Through Time 🙂 – all over the joint…

    The Mango Bones mystery caught my attention… from what I’ve read many Anthropologists think that spoken language doesn’t go back much beyond 50,000 years..if even that far… But then again…if humans sailed hundreds of miles over the ocean to Austraila..??? Possibly 70,000/ 75.000 years ago…That may indicate spoken language at that time….ant not just Co-operation….Some also think the origin of spoken language.. may have been the catalyst for the dispersion From Africa, and subsequent migrations…. But some of the datings of the Mango bones kind of put a spanner in the works Re Out of Africa…it’s a bit of a conundrum….

    Who knows for sure…i love the mystery of it.. so interesting.. the wonder of it all

  13. Phil; “I didn’t realise you are in London. Fancy a pint sometime? ”

    Only in London rarely now; to think that I originally thought it would have been nice to meet up with Clark, is now a consideration that has rather put me off meeting internet contacts !

  14. rather put me off meeting internet contacts !

    Well Don’t go on yir own then Macky…

    many months ago i met up with Nevermind, and his lovely Wife…. wonderful people..give it a go.

  15. Clark: I think it’s a mistake to invite certain others along. I strikes me that you actually believe we’ll all arrive at some consensus, sit around singing kum ba yah maybe, if we could only all get together, and talk to one another in reasonable voices. It’s not going to happen – too many have axes to grind, a lot don’t have honest, upfront motives, and besides it’s in our nature. We’re too stupid and greedy to survive as a species. That shows itself in every aspect we exhibit.

    So please don’t. I’m not sure what you think you’re trying to do. Does someone who refers to “mad lefties” sound like they’ll contribute something here, that they’re not already contributing perfectly well at the increasingly neo-con friendly CM site?

    *

    About ADHD – I don’t think it’s a disorder, frankly. People are just different, and we need that sort of diversity to survive. A crop-planter and tender is not going to have much use for a ADHD inclination. On the other hand, the guard who’s wondering if that vine is actually a snake, or if that stealthy, almost imperceptible yet approaching sound might be a lion, is very useful. His (or her, sorry! 😉 ) attention needs to be very easily distracted.

    A hunter – in the ADHD sense – might be creeping up on a deer, when a rabbit runs across the path. A decision has to be made instantly – get the rabbit, for a 1-2 day meal guaranteed (which will frighten off the deer), or forego that and try to get the deer, which will feed them for weeks?

    Decisions like that, and the ability to be distracted out of the blue and yet still make the right choice – fast – are necessary for some component of society. It won’t work if we were all like that, then again, it wouldn’t work if none of us were.

    Try reading a bit of this:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/45359387/The-Edison-Gene

    The sad thing is that it’s been deemed a “condition” which must be overcome, usually by medication.

  16. Here’s a counter to CM’s neo-con line on the Ukraine that deserves to be read. Someone who actually knows what they are talking about, without the burden of some curious ideological blinkers:

    The U.S. mainstream news media is reaching a new professional low point as it covers the Ukraine crisis by brazenly touting Official Washington’s propaganda themes, blatantly ignoring contrary facts and leading the American public into another geopolitical blind alley, writes Robert Parry.

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/16/mainstream-us-media-is-lost-in-ukraine/

    There’s a lot more, Robert Parry is indeed worth the time.

  17. Macky, do you think that the white colonialists of the British empire were, on average, racist? What about the white South Africans? The Jewish Israeli “settlers” in Palestine? Do you think these groups were/are predominantly racist?

    Do you think that a native of a colonised land would consider the colonisers on average / predominantly racist?

  18. Condolences Phil on the death of your cousin. Realization of one’s own mortality usually follows the death of a close friend or relation of similar age.

    About Kate Bush. (Hope she is not related to Dubya) She is on for 15 days at the Hammersmith Apollo. Aged 55 now but not looking it. Hope the fur is fake. On the Times front page here. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjSahodCEAA4R6E.jpg

    Perhaps she is providing for her old age!

  19. @Clark

    Why don’t you read what you posted? Part 3 “internal waters or territorial sea of the United Kingdom ” Not English territorial territorial waters UK territorial waters, it is all UK territorial waters.

    Pert 4. British fishery limits adjacent to Scotland it deals with fishing limits only.

    Why do you keep posting a document which proves you wrong and pretending it proves you right?

    Why did Craig not make any mention of the facts I have outlined in his blog entry on maritime boundaries? Why did he try and deceive people into thinking the oil fields were closer to Scotland?

  20. Oh dear Clark, you force me to respond to you out of genuine embarrassment for you; So I won’t ask you to re-read my comments iro Uzbek again, as I realise that the point will continuously go over your head, so I trust you will now at least understand why I now set the point in such a childish simplistic way;

    Uzbek claims Russians are especially & inherently bad (chauvinistic).

    Uzbez claims Russian history proves this centuries spanning badness (national/ethnic/racial chavanism).

    Macky points out that Russians are not uniquely & inherently bad, but are exactly normal humans the same as every other people.

    Macky does this by highlighting the badness/chauvinism that is intrinsic in the openly & officially promoted creeds of both the “Chosenness” of the Jews, & the “Manifest Destiny” doctrine of the Americans.

    Uzbek fails to acknowledge these clear examples of other States actually indoctrinating badness/chauvinism in their citizens.

    Uzbek fails to acknowledge that his dubious contention that Russian identity has always been deliberate cultivated to be chauvinistic, is in stark contrast to incontestable chauvinistic official creeds of both the Jewish & American identities.

    Uzbek,s failure to acknowledge the above two points, that disprove his contention that Russians are especially & inherently bad (chauvinistic); reveals a hypocritical inconsistency that betrays his prejudice towards Russians.

    Therefore his criticism of Russia & Russians, and his take on the Ukraine events are not motivated by rational argumentation, but instead are driven by the demon of irrational racism.

  21. “Fred, the one point on which you may be right is that some or all of the oil fields under discussion may be closer to England than to Scotland. But this is only one factor in the determination of maritime boundaries. The shape of the coastline and extension of the land border are others that Craig has mentioned. Ultimately such borders are negotiated, and simple proximity does not by itself determine which territory a given position fall in.”

    Not may be right, am right, I know I took a map and ruler, if you did the same you would know I’m right too.

    Yes the boarders would be determined if Scotland became independent, they haven’t been already decided as Craig lead people to believe. Proximity is the usual method and the method the courts usually, though not always, go with. It’s the method which makes sense and is fairest to both parties.

    The oil fields are mostly abandoned anyway, the oil production from the others is negligible (something else Craig didn’t mention) nobody is going to be fighting over them, if it came to negotiations both sides would probably just agree on an equidistant line.

    It isn’t that important other than to instil a sense of outrage in the Scots and unfairly affect a referendum vote.

  22. Macky, I see. You’re treating Uzbek in the UK just like you’d treat a Palestinian in the UK. You’d point out that their fear and distrust of Israeli Jews was merely irrational racism, driven by internal demons. And you’d argue for the realpolitic necessity of Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights.

  23. Fred, you have selectively quoted and added emphasis, creating a misleading impression. You have (again) entirely omitted Part 3 which deals with territory, but used bold type to highlight “fisheries” in Part 4. You have said that the document doesn’t mention England, whereas it is clear that the document is written in terms of “adjacent to Scotland” and “not adjacent to Scotland“; regarding this boundary, “not adjacent to Scotland” obviously refers to England.

    This is not honest of you Fred. As I’ve met you personally, I know that it is likely that you’re doing this to wind me up. One of the first things I asked you was the number of your comments designed to wind people up, and you proudly admitted that it was many. This probably accounts for your being banned on Caithness forums, rather than any inherent racism of the people of Caithness.

    The actual figures for oil revenues will be found in the GERS report. I do not know of a link to it.

  24. Clark; “You’d point out that their fear and distrust of Israeli Jews was merely irrational racism, driven by internal demons”

    If any UK based Palestinian held & preached the same racism towards Jews as Uzbek has do iro of Russians, I would the very least of his problems as he would be prosecuted & probably locked-up.

    (BTW after stooping so low to make pathetic excuses for Craig, you have now ended up trying to do the same for a blatant racist)

    Clark; “And you’d argue for the realpolitic necessity of Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights.”

    A very laughable attempt at a comparison equivalence ! How may Israelis live in the Golan Heights, nevermind make up the majority of the population; how do the cultural, historic & religious ties between the Crimea & Russia, compare in anyway at all to the non-existent ties between that occupied part of Syria & Israel ? 😀

  25. Glenn_uk, I agree with you in general regarding the reclassification of parts of human diversity as medical conditions. It’s a great money-spinner for the pharmaceutical companies.

    I strongly disagree with your comment about Craig; his position on Ukraine is not neocon. He’s just opposed to big powerful countries inflicting their will upon populations, whether through direct military presence as in Crimea, or through economic power and control of government as in Ukraine before the uprising.

    It was not my intention to encourage Uzbek in the UK to comment here, and I wouldn’t expect him to do so. I simply felt sympathy for someone who’d survived and escaped Russian oppression, and I wanted him to see Macky’s ad hominen style of argument in a different context.

    If things don’t change here I expect I’ll stop submitting comments. This entire episode is causing me to become disillusioned with the Left; I’m becoming increasingly convinced by the common accusations that the Left is hypocritical, selective in its honesty, and motivated by anger and aggression. Please change my mind.

  26. Macky, you’ve again avoided answering my questions. With Uzbek in the UK, you are dealing with a victim of colonialism. You are blaming the victim.

    You say you “would [be] the very least of his problems”; are you admitting that you would be a problem, albeit a minor one?

    I realised immediately after submitting my comment that the Golan Heights was an inappropriate example, and that I should have asked you if you’d argue for continued Israeli colonisation of the West Bank, and decry our hypothetical Palestinian’s objections as “driven by the demon of irrational racism”. Would you actually say that to such a Palestinian, if hypothetically not under arrest?

  27. Macky, 9:25 am; please omit this sort of content from your comments:

    Oh dear Clark, you force me to respond to you out of genuine embarrassment for you; So I won’t ask you to re-read my comments iro Uzbek again, as I realise that the point will continuously go over your head, so I trust you will now at least understand why I now set the point in such a childish simplistic way;

    It has no bearing upon the subject matter, it hurts me emotionally (and it may be your intention to do so), and it acts as a smear. Omitting such stuff will also save you a lot of typing.

  28. Kool Light fotos Mary three very nice ones in there…. Trees, sheep, and sea Cave…

    DID I SAY TREES…. i love trees and making wild wood sculptures… i used to have a neat Chalet in the middle of an island forest, But…
    check oot this bad ass 3.200 year old Tree –

    3200 Year Old Tree Is So Huge It’s Never Been Captured In A Single Image. Until Now.

    http://distractify.com/geek/science/after-126-separate-photos-scientists-have-captured-this-incredibly-tall-tree-in-a-single-image/

  29. “This is not honest of you Fred. As I’ve met you personally, I know that it is likely that you’re doing this to wind me up. One of the first things I asked you was the number of your comments designed to wind people up, and you proudly admitted that it was many. This probably accounts for your being banned on Caithness forums, rather than any inherent racism of the people of Caithness.”

    No, it’s because what I say is true.

    The territorial waters the act refers to are UK territorial waters as it says, not Scottish.

    Territorial waters only extend 12 nautical miles and the oil fields you are talking about are 125 miles away.

    But I won’t call you dishonest, I won’t say you are only trying to wind me up, I won’t try and ascribe what you say to you being dropped on your head as a child.

    I’ll just state the facts and let the truth speak for itself.

  30. If Craig had a nervous breakdown subsequent to events related to his firing, maybe Uzbek has had his marbles tossed and never received adequate care. That’s the only wiggle-room I can provide for allowing his nonsensical bigotry toward ALL MAD LEFTIES. Time for a break.

  31. And allow me thank Craig for two years of pleasant discussions without culture shock holding sway over effective communication. That’s changed, of course, thanks to Craig.

  32. X-posting what I left on ‘Deconstructing…’ before mod can shitcan.

    Just popping in to do a Komodo. CM has become a snakepit and I don’t like snakes, so let Craig reap what he sowed…Neocon Jubilee !

  33. Ben, you need to try it to know what it’s like, arguing alone or nearly alone against an ideologically motivated group who minimise or dismiss facts which are inconvenient to their argument. I also know that arguing with Macky is emotionally detrimental due to all his slurs and insults.

  34. “I also know that arguing with Macky is emotionally detrimental due to all his slurs and insults”

    …much as arguing with Habbabkuk is.

  35. “Ben, you need to try it to know what it’s like, arguing alone or nearly alone against an ideologically motivated group who minimise or dismiss facts which are inconvenient to their argument. I also know that arguing with Macky is emotionally detrimental due to all his slurs and insults.”

    Did he call you dishonest then?

  36. Phil: Very sorry to hear about the loss of your cousin, and you are right – we should not fret and agonise at length about pretty inconsequential matters around that time, really, when we’re clearly not going to be thinking and acting at our finest in any case. It seems that we expect ourselves to act with total grace at the time of another’s passing, and allow ourselves nothing in consideration of our own grief and confusion at these baffling, numbing occasions.

    It also seem to be the case that we have to fasten onto something – anything, really – on which to hang our dark emotional responses. So a trivial item looms massively large, and we push our grief into that event, making it a bloated thing, totally out of proportion to how we interacted with that person throughout the better times which make up the vast majority of our experience with them.

    Why is it that someone can live reasonably happily for 40 years, die in a horrible accident, and that final part is the only point we can really think about? Someone – again – might live 80 years, nearly all of them pretty good. A 5-week downturn which ends in their death would normally be regarded as a “brief illness”, which it is, relatively speaking. But it certainly doesn’t seem like it upon reflection – it rather appears that that 5 weeks was more like many years, a quite significant proportion of the overall life, when weighed against the sum of memories of that person.

    Anniversaries are coming up. My parents would have been celebrating well over half a century together, just about now. My Dad’s death occurred almost a year ago. It seems that my mother was running on autopilot for that whole duration, and for some time afterwards. It’s hitting her pretty hard now. But as someone from the WW-II era (they were children during it), they don’t like to show it much.

    I think a certain periods in our lives are particularly rough. In our teens and 20’s, everything is fine – death is pretty much unknown (apart from for the grandparents, and ancient great-aunts and so on, which is entirely expected). Then a decade or so later, all the uncles, aunts and parents start to pass away. We even get our contemporaries dying off. With a creeping sense of unwelcome inevitability, we find death is becoming a more frequent visitor to our lives.

  37. Ben: I hope you’re not planning to disappear on us?

    Clark: You are most certainly entitled to a reply from me, please give me a short while to consider it, and please don’t disappear yourself in the meantime. I do actually value your posts, and would be very sorry to consider that I had any part in discouraging you from making them.

    *
    btw: I know you have a bit of a checkered history of discussions with Macky – but you should not allow it to become emotionally taxing. As soon as things become personal, any hope of genuine debate is lost. I’ve had a couple of exchanges with Macky too, some positive, others not. It’s best not to invest much emotional energy into someone you simply do not know or care for at all (no value judgements being made here, you understand).

    We – on the other hand – have had a bit of a connection, and I would not welcome any sort of falling out.

  38. Clark; “Macky, you’ve again avoided answering my questions.”

    No, a Racist is a Racist; Spouting racism is a crime in this country, he may try to plead for mitigating factors to be considered, but I doubt it will sway many Judges.

    Even using the West Bank, it is still a ridiculously crap comparison;

    Do Israelis make up the majority of the population; have the Palestinians held a Referendum & voted to be joined with Israel !?

    I could go on, rather a lot on, on both these points, but hopefully it’s not necessary.

  39. Glen

    Eloquent post there….Very humane.

    Phil Forgive my manners…Condolences …

    it all reminds me of my fathers passing away a few years ago,
    it was pretty much the result of a boating accident… that very nearly killed two of his sons as well… myself being one of them…

    it was during the Very early morning launch of dads 50ft steel hulled trawler…

    We think the mistake was in not pulling the boat forward a few feet first..to tighten the winch cable…then reversing it back into water ( Clyde Port Glasgow ) ..result was reversing too fast… sudden stop…and she started keeling over… a yellow generator for jack hammers slid and pinned my dad to the edge… she stoppped keeling over, and my brother and i used a length of timber to lever dad free….

    his heart did stop in AE…but they got him back… then he was ok for some months… But it surely was the boat that Got him in the end… she was called ‘ The Aurora Borealis ‘….

    there’s a little more to the story..as the three of us ended up out in the middle of the Clyde Taking on water through damaged Prop, and rudder….it certainly was a monumental battle for a few hours…. i vividly remember asking dad ” how ju Think we’ve got “…. but it was the thousand yard stare i was seeing in his eyes….

    We saved all on the day…for a few months… I’m rambling on now… But Long may those sky spirits Dance ( a native American term for the Aurora )

    AA… i second Mary at 8;13 am… thank you for this space and hosting us….

  40. Macky wrote:

    Oh dear Clark, you force me to respond to you out of genuine embarrassment for you; So I won’t ask you to re-read my comments iro Uzbek again, as I realise that the point will continuously go over your head, so I trust you will now at least understand why I now set the point in such a childish simplistic way…/

    This is so embarrassingly a parody of female sensibilities being offended, I’m wondering if Macky is actually female after all.

    After that massive hissy-display of being “outed” as a female, this sort of thing makes one pause to consider if “Macky” might be overplaying his hand.

    Macky – seriously – if you have any feminine virtues at all, it is about time you started to show them.

  41. glenn_uk; “This is so embarrassingly a parody of female sensibilities being offended, I’m wondering if Macky is actually female after all”

    No, it’s a reaction to having my intelligence insulted non-stop by ridiculously desperate misrepresentations trying to be passed of as worthwhile arguments.

    “After that massive hissy-display of being “outed” as a female, this sort of thing makes one pause to consider if “Macky” might be overplaying his hand”

    Regardless of my actual gender, the fact is Clark bullied me into giving him my email; upon receipt he thought/thinks I am female as he then sent an email message to me, addressing me as a female. I have been very careful over all the years at at blogging not to reveal my sex as people can’t help allowing that knowledge to influence the way they correspond with a person. Clark maliciously revealed that personal information, purely as a vindictive kick-back at me, & simply because of our heated exchanges here; a disgusting & unforgivable breach of trust that reveals the very ugly side of his personality.

    “Macky – seriously – if you have any feminine virtues at all, it is about time you started to show them”

    I find it sad that you have allowed Clark to emotionally blackmail you into writing these comments; his regular threats to quit commentating is exactly the same tactic as his abusive hysterics employ; and his manipulative, desperate & cheap plea to you of “Please change my mind” in order for you to come to his aid because of his irrational support of Craig’s Ukraine position, a position you say you disagree with, has obviously worked, as you have made now made clear that you are not here to be better informed, and indeed have openly stated that you rather not risk “any sort of falling out” in disagreement over issues; I think you have let down your own “intellectual honesty” with this position.

  42. My karma is fine today and for the first time for ages, I woke feeling refreshed. I heard a performance of Duruflé’s Requiem last night by a cathedral choir accompanied by the cathedral’s organ. Such beautiful music and almost balm for anyone recently bereaved.

    A version here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TneUTtCAJlE

    Duruflé lived to be 84. The blot on his copy book is this but who knows what would the British would have been like under Nazi occupation.

    ‘The new Vichy regime, formally established in July 1940 after France’s defeat by Germany, continued the program of commissions established by the now displaced Third Republic. It spent a considerable amount of money to relieve the severe unemployment in France, awarding a total of eighty-one commissions throughout the war to composers needing financial incentive to produce new works. Because the Vichy government took music seriously for its propaganda value, it generally restricted its awards to composers who upheld the conservative, antimodernist, and pro-Catholic sentiments of the regime. The government offered 10,000 francs for a symphonic poem, 20,000 francs for a symphony, and 30,000 francs for an opera or similar work. The monetary awards for the commissions were not intended to be generous, but were large enough merely to free the composer to devote his or her time to the composition for as long as needed, roughly six to twelve months. The first Vichy awards were given on May 16, 1941. Composers Louis Aubert, Tony Aubin, Louis Beydts, and Jeanne Leleu were commissioned to write operas or similar works, and Ermend-Bonnal and Lucien Haudebert symphonies of at least three movements. Henri Challan, Yvonne Desportes, Pierre Lantier, Gaston Litaize, and Maurice Duruflé were commissioned to write symphonic poems.

    Duruflé took some six years to complete his work, far longer than was anticipated by the authorities. The war had ended by then, and a new French government had replaced the Vichy regime. On January 21, 1948, Duruflé submitted a certificate to the Administration des beaux-arts of the new Fourth Republic, indicating that he had completed his commission by writing the Requiem and requesting payment of the agreed amount. Duruflé was one of few composers whose submitted certificate indicated the name of the piece that fulfilled the commission, thus leaving no doubt as to which piece he had composed under commission.

    Duruflé was ultimately paid 30,000 francs, instead of the contracted 10,000 francs, for writing what proved to be the greatest composition of his career.’

    http://mauricedurufle.com/index.php

    PS I am an atheist but have tried to live my life to Christ’s teachings. The Ten Commandments in short.

  43. ” I have been very careful over all the years at at blogging not to reveal my sex as people can’t help allowing that knowledge to influence the way they correspond with a person.”

    Ah. So it had nothing to do with Snowden, the NSA and GCHQ after all.

    Previously:
    “What a cheap sexist comment ! I actually value my privacy, especially on the Internet; the less known about me online, the better; have you not been following the Snowden issue either ?”

    “Truth and Justice” my arse

  44. Ben Please don’t leave here or CM. Your voice is valuable. You are the only identifiable American voice we have on both outlets.

  45. Dreoilin; “Ah. So it had nothing to do with Snowden, the NSA and GCHQ after all”

    Oh dear Dreoilin, no wonder Oscar Wilde declared that there is no sin except stupidity; both my comments are true, and mutually consistent, but you do need a little bit of intelligence to realise this obvious fact.

    I’m flattered that you pay such close attention to what I wrote both here and at Craig’s, but perhaps if it wasn’t with such malice intent, then you wouldn’t keep ending making a such a fool of yourself, and in such a revealing manner also.

  46. Macky: I truly do not care what gender you are, or choose to go by. It makes zero difference to me. Do I treat Clark more gently because he’s male? I don’t think so. Being at least partially a gentleman, or making efforts in that direction when I remember to do so, I would generally be less inclined to be offensive to a woman. Call me old school if you like.

    Me and Clark have shared a few laughs, and lots of issues for a few years now. I would not want to fall out because of this disagreement over what I see as CM’s change in direction. I like him and find him trustworthy, despite that difference. Is that intellectually dishonest, in your view?

    Frankly, I’d rather not fall out with people over issues, unless those issues make them entirely repellent to me. I do find your dripping condescension very unappealing, but then I also told Clark that telling you to F-off was out of line. He’s also written a long note defending CM’s neo-con friendly position, to which I owe a reply.

    Btw – I wouldn’t read too much into Clark’s wanting your email. It’s nothing really personal, you should assume neither flattery nor a threat. He does that with just about everyone he runs up against, because he actually thinks he can talk them into agreement (to be civil, if not on the issues). I don’t know if it’s ever worked. I wouldn’t have bothered myself – but then, I’m not as nice a person as Clark.

  47. glenn_uk; “I truly do not care what gender you are, or choose to go”

    However you “would generally be less inclined to be offensive to a woman”, so as I said knowing somebody’s gender changes how people engage with you.

    “I like him and find him trustworthy, despite that difference. Is that intellectually dishonest, in your view?”

    The honest answer is yes, because not only he is completely untrustworthy, there’s is not too much else that’s been revealed here as remotely likeable.

    “Frankly, I’d rather not fall out with people over issues, unless those issues make them entirely repellent to me”

    You don’t find supporting the Neocon agenda repellent !?

    “I do find your dripping condescension very unappealing”

    There’s two approaches when dealing with not very bright people, either you spend a lot of time, playing the idiot yourself in order to coax a worthwhile constructive dialogue, or you employ the blunt but honest approach in the hope that it forces them to raise their game and/or stop wasting your time; when you realise that a person is not only not very bright, but is also deliberately further playing the fool, then the choice of dealing with them narrows down to the second, unless you are a masochist with unlimited free time & are prepared to swamp a thread with countless, & ultimately, fruitless comments.

    “He’s also written a long note defending CM’s neo-con friendly position, to which I owe a reply”

    Good luck with that, but don’t make the mistake of seriously challenging his points, no matter how absurd they will be, you just may upset him & run the dreaded risk of falling out.

    “Btw – I wouldn’t read too much into Clark’s wanting your email”

    I didn’t, it was the malicious disclosure of personal information that is unforgivable.

    ” I’m not as nice a person as Clark”

    Was that intentional or unintentional sarcasm ?

  48. Phil; “very reasonably it seems to me, why CM kept quiet for so long and if he had approached Megrahi’s defence team”

    Steady Phil, you will have Clark interrogating you over possible lack of blind faith in the Leader, although it will probably be quite amusing to see what self-humiliating depths he will now reach in yet another desperate attempt to put together more excuses for Craig.

  49. Macky, rather than have another pop at Clark, a more interesting response might have been to ponder that none amongst us asked the screamingly obvious and compassionate question.

    I find it humbling and embarrassing for us.

  50. “Macky, rather than have another pop at Clark, a more interesting response might have been to ponder that none amongst us asked the screamingly obvious and compassionate question. ”

    He wouldn’t have been telling them anything they didn’t already know Phil, I’ve known about it all along. Everybody with an ounce of sense knew what had happened. Proving it was a different matter, the trial was politics not justice.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/777589.stm

  51. Fred, I didn’t mean to suggest that Craig’s testimony would have devastated the prosecution. I am surprised no comment writer thought to ask why he didn’t appear.

  52. “Oh dear Dreoilin, no wonder Oscar Wilde declared that there is no sin except stupidity; both my comments are true, and mutually consistent, but you do need a little bit of intelligence to realise this obvious fact.”

    ——————————————————————–

    “Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”

    You need to get over yourself Macky. I read both blogs. I saw you were still smarting (at Craig’s) at my comment that you’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer — so you keep trying to return the favour. 🙂

    I don’t think GCHQ/NSA give a damn about whether you’re male or female. And you’ve pretty much admitted it’s all about how you are perceived and how people engage with you. So maybe you’d quit lying now.

    But talk away. It’s funny, if a bit long-winded. I won’t be engaging with you after this.

  53. Phil;”I didn’t mean to suggest that Craig’s testimony would have devastated the prosecution. I am surprised no comment writer thought to ask why he didn’t appear”

    On the contrary I think Craig’s revelation could have caused a significant storm, or at least opened-up more people to the realization that a frame-up was in occurring; not that surprising nobody asked, as many sharp Posters have already abandoned the Blog, and the rest are per-occupied by the distracting trolls; anyhow not to late to ask why, not by me though as Craig seems to have an aversion to responding to my queries.

  54. Dreoilin; “I won’t be engaging with you after this”

    Your tragedy being thinking that you ever did.

  55. Craig has already stated his position regarding his knowledge about Syrian responsibility for Lockerbie. He was working on the arms embargo against Iraq. It was a small team overloaded with work, to the extent that he was sleeping on a camp bed on site. When his colleague offered to show Craig the report, Craig asked not to see. As I remember from Craig’s article, he felt that he couldn’t take any more on at the time.

  56. Macky, you’re a fool. Yes, I deliberately used “she” in reference to you. I’d thought it out in advance. I knew that my use of the word did not reveal your gender, as anyone writing has to pick either “he” or “she” and using “he” is merely an outdated convention. If I were to refer to, say, Habbabkuk as “she”, would that prove that Habbabkuk is female? No, of course not. I might not even know. Only I had seen your e-mail. No one other than you knew whether I knew your gender or not, just like no one knows whether I know Habbabkuk’s gender or not.

    But I guessed that you were so keen to find some criticism of me that you would jump, and you did. I even gave you two more chances to avoid revealing your gender with my “what revelation”, and “nothing to reveal” comments:

    https://squonk.tk/blog/2014/01/20/the-general-discussion-thread/comment-page-8/#comment-4693

    But no, you were determined, and by your own actions revealed your gender yourself. Foolish and predictable.

    Macky, I wanted you to learn something, which is that you are not as logical as you think you are, but it seems that you still have not learnt that. “I can’t help thinking logically” you have proclaimed, but you can’t think logically enough to understand that your logic isn’t that good, even when it’s been explained to you. Prove me wrong. Please.

  57. Macky, prove me wrong. Show me that you understand my logical argument. Show me you can act like an adult by taking responsibility for revealing your gender yourself.

    Alternatively, prove me right with another few paragraphs of insulting vague waffle about my hysterics and lack of intellectual honesty. Or by just never mentioning this subject again.

  58. Clark: When you first referred to a “she”, I thought you had either made a mistake, were being over-cautiously gender-inspecific (for PC purposes), or had surmised a feminine trait I’d missed. It was only after the massive hissy that (obviously deliberately!) drew our collection to the point, that anyone might have surmised (or been in the slightest bit interested) that your corresponded was – maybe – female.

    So I think everyone dragged into this fascinating discussion is being played, frankly.

    *

    There was an extremely tiresome, and completely ineducable lady who used to hold forth – to a not inconsiderable degree – on Usenet’s talk.politics.animals. Her name was Sue Bishop, but her username was “Richard Bishop”. Anyone assuming she was male, or that her name might be “Richard Bishop” was put straight very firmly and angrily, because she was using her son’s machine, and how dare anyone make assumptions? And so forth, and so on. At length, frequently.

    This particular “putting straight” was clearly a point of real joy in her life. For some reason, years since, I am increasingly reminded of it in this pitiful dispute.

    *

    [Self censored cuts]

  59. Clark;”you were so keen to find some criticism of me”

    Oh yes, I was so really scratching around, so had such a desperate need !

    Clark, be advise that your intelligence insulting comments are best directed to certain others who daren’t object in case they upset you; as for me, only expect a reply if you manage to concoct something actually worth responding to.

    (BTW thank you for inadvertently revealing in your pathetic apology iro Craig’s Lockerbie knowledge, that he too is drenched in Iraqi blood, with his involvement in the Genocidal Sanctions; no wonder he was able to heap praise upon that war criminal Gorden Brown).

  60. “On the contrary I think Craig’s revelation could have caused a significant storm, or at least opened-up more people to the realization that a frame-up was in occurring;”

    No, it wouldn’t have been admissible. The judge made it clear he would not consider any alternative theories, he would only judge on the prosecution theory.

  61. Fred; “No, it wouldn’t have been admissible”

    I wasn’t referring to the Kangaroo Court sham, but going public like he did with his Ubek Human Rights abuse whistle-blowing.

  62. “Fred, I didn’t mean to suggest that Craig’s testimony would have devastated the prosecution. I am surprised no comment writer thought to ask why he didn’t appear.”

    Well personally I’d just assumed Craig had slipped in the top secret document bit to make himself seem a bit more important. The Iranian defector and what he said certainly wasn’t top secret, it was in all the papers. This is likely what the writer on Lobster was hinting at as well.

  63. Beyond hypocrisy

    In his always interesting e-mail newsletter, Bill Blum
    commented on US attitude to events in the Ukraine. 13

    On March 2 US Secretary of State John Kerry condemned
    Russia’s “incredible act of aggression” in Ukraine
    (Crimea) and threatened economic sanctions. “You just
    don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion
    by invading another country on completely trumped up
    pre-text.”

    13 http://williamblum.org/aer/read/126

    Iraq was in the 21st century. Senator John Kerry
    voted for it. Hypocrisy of this magnitude has to be
    respected.

    True enough. But the comments of US secretaries of state
    are intended for domestic consumption, not other states – or
    the history books.

    http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/free/lobster67/lob67-view-from-the-bridge.pdf

    🙂

  64. Fred; ” The Iranian defector and what he said certainly wasn’t top secret, it was in all the papers””

    The weight & impact of an unknown Iranian defector claims as compared to those of a former Government insider, are really not the same thing,

  65. “The weight & impact of an unknown Iranian defector claims as compared to those of a former Government insider, are really not the same thing,”

    When the government insider was just repeating what the Iranian defector said they are exactly the same thing.

    Fact is the defence team already knew about it. Fact is the judge had already said it would not be admissible in evidence.

    Does everybody have to be so polarised? Seems like everybody thinks everything has to be black or white, everything must be loved or hated. Craig posts some interesting stuff so long as you check on it. He is far from perfect but then aren’t we all.

    He aint no saint that’s for sure but just because you disagree with him about something it doesn’t mean he’s everything evil under the sun.

  66. That’s a very direct question Clark to which the answer is yes or no. I think the answer is obvious.

    Anyway I am not getting involved in any blog spats. I had enough from Habbabkuk, Villager, Jemand and the others. Scarred for life now 🙂

  67. Fred; “When the government insider was just repeating what the Iranian defector said they are exactly the same thing”

    It not the question of the message, but the credibility of the Messenger.

    “Fact is the defence team already knew about it. Fact is the judge had already said it would not be admissible in evidence”

    Why are you still talking about the Kangaroo Court, when I specifically mentioned that I’m referring to the possible impact a Public revelation would have had; in general, in alerting people to the stitch-up of Libya ?

    “He aint no saint that’s for sure but just because you disagree with him about something it doesn’t mean he’s everything evil under the sun”

    Of course, but you really need to address this obvious point to people like Clark, who seems to be always bending over backwards, & with totally laughable justifications, to excuse even the most irrational Craig says/does.

    When it comes to Iraq, which is without doubt the most horrendous & shameful Crime Against Humanity of our generation, I personally draw an unforgivable line red line against those that supported that crime, nevermind being actually involved in the enforcement of those obscene & Genocidal Sanctions, being more serious than a War Crime in themselves.

  68. “When it comes to Iraq, which is without doubt the most horrendous & shameful Crime Against Humanity of our generation, I personally draw an unforgivable line red line against those that supported that crime, nevermind being actually involved in the enforcement of those obscene & Genocidal Sanctions, being more serious than a War Crime in themselves.”

    I don’t know what role Craig played in that and if I did I wouldn’t consider myself qualified to pass judgement.

  69. Fred; “I don’t know what role Craig played in that and if I did I wouldn’t consider myself qualified to pass judgement”

    “From August 1990 to August 1991 he was also head of the FCO Section of the Embargo Surveillance Centre, responsible for intelligence analysis on Iraqi attempts at evading sanctions, particularly in the field of weapons procurement, and with providing information to UK military forces and to other governments to effect physical enforcement of the embargo”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/about-craig-murray/

  70. Not my department Macky, I stick to downloading maps and measuring the distance of oilfields, I read through the UN Convention of the Sea, that way when I say something you can bet it’s right.

    What you wrote could mean one thing to one person and something else to somebody else.

  71. How we each choose to draw the lines of responsibility is an interesting question. I imagine it is relative to ourselves, with ourselves always being on the right side of the line.

    Macky, I’ve even heard people suggest that endless internet comment bickering is a deluded crack-smoking waste of time dressed up as concern.

    Musical interlude: There are no spectators and no one is innocent.

  72. “How we each choose to draw the lines of responsibility is an interesting question. I imagine it is relative to ourselves, with ourselves always being on the right side of the line.”

    One of my favourite Escher lithographs is the hand with reflecting sphere. No matter where you hold the sphere you will always see yourself at the centre, someone else will always see themselves at the centre, that’s how we all see the universe.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Hand_with_Reflecting_Sphere.jpg

  73. Macky, I had never read CM’s about page. I have to admit that doesn’t sound good.

    Clark or anyone else, has CM ever spoken about this or any less savoury work he did?

  74. Phil; “I imagine it is relative to ourselves, with ourselves always being on the right side of the line.”

    Morality/sense of right & wrong is innate, you feel bad when you do bad.

    Intellectual honest is also innate, if you accept or don’t question something that doesn’t make sense, you know you are compromising your own intelligence.

    (BTW I’ve just be put on moderation at Craig’s Blog, for politely reminding Habby that he forgot to include the banned Anon is his whining list of names to the Mods to take action on; pathetic moderating as usual).

  75. “(BTW I’ve just be put on moderation at Craig’s Blog, for politely reminding Habby that he forgot to include the banned Anon is his whining list of names to the Mods to take action on; pathetic moderating as usual).”

    I had to smile when the moderator said:

    “Remember that your host is a HUMAN RIGHTS activist, and not very party-political.”

    Just goes to show how one person can see the Liberal candidate for Bolton as party political while someone else may not.

  76. Phil; “has CM ever spoken about this or any less savoury work he did?

    Phil, as Head of Embargo Surveillance Centre, he would have reporting directly to Thatcher, and then later to Major, providing intelligence, for enforcing both ithe Genocidal Sanctions, and most probably to the Military, to aid their illegal bombing campaign, carried out under the pretext of the Orwellian name “No Fly Zone” policy”

    You don’t get to be made an Ambassador under Blair for nothing !

  77. Fred, I love Escher’s work, too. It seems to me that there’s a political message in Belvedere; a prisoner is trapped in a cell that could not exist, a craftsman studies a small impossible object, trying to work out the trick. But the successful, the better dressed and wealthier, don’t bother with the contradictions; they just climb the impossible structure and enjoy the view.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belvedere_%28M._C._Escher%29

    Has there been any progress on our own construction project? I don’t suppose the weather has been good enough.

  78. Craig seems open about it. I can’t remember him saying more than what is on his home page.

    In 2006 he gave evidence to the Bush Crimes Commission and said
    ‘I was also an expert in Iraqi weapons procurement, having led the British effort on monitoring Iraqi attempts at weapons procurement during the early 1990s and during the first Gulf War.’

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2006/06/the_banality_of/

    Suffice to say he resigned as Ambassador and went through a personal hell being hounded and slandered by various arms of HMG. I believe he lost his pension but am not sure.

    I googled Albright (the price is worth it – speaking of dead Iraqi children because of the sanctions) but nothing came up.

    PS I am on moderation for using the word troll but it’s not the end of the world just very unfair when the troll seems to get away with murder in his sniping at me and others.

  79. @Clark

    The prisoner is the only one there who is sane, sometimes I know how he feels.

    Not much progress due to financial restraints.

  80. Mary; “Craig seems open about it”

    On the extract you have just quoted, he limits/downplays his role to just being about “weapons procurement”, in contrast to even his own original description that I quoted.

  81. Phil, Craig was monitoring Iraqi weapons procurement, for just one year right at the start of the sanctions in 1990, well before the effects of sanctions became so lethal, and well before those lethal effects became known. He was helping to prevent Iraq from getting weapons, not food or medicines.

    Craig has always advocated international law, and the sanctions against Iraq were debated and passed at the UN. In any case, people change (except apparently Macky, who’s obviously already perfect) and nothing Craig did then detracts from his stand against torture in 2003.

    Please don’t let Macky’s axe-grinding exaggerations influence you too much. If Macky’s ever done anything like Craig’s opposition to torture, I’ve yet to hear of it.

  82. Clark; “Craig was monitoring Iraqi weapons procurement”

    “particularly in the field of weapons procurement” does means only, but even under the “weapons” pretext, Britain & the US had a veto on any item they chose to class as dual-use, so Craig team was responsible for denying Iraqis such dangerous “weapons” as clothes, paperclips, toys, etc;

    http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~progress/flyers/banned.html

  83. Fred, 3:37 pm; are you saying Craig was “the Liberal candidate for Bolton”? Craig stood as an independent in Blackburn, but only to run against the man who had him sacked from Uzbekistan, Jack Straw.

  84. Typo ; “particularly in the field of weapons procurement” does NOT mean only, but even under the “weapons” pretext”

    Anyhow my moderated comment got the chop, which was a reply to a personal insult from Jemand, which most inconsistently is allowed to stand; I think we should post our censored Posts here, or maybe on a “Censored From Craig Murray’s Blog” Thread; so here’s the first;

    Jemand; “You’re not a champion of “Truth and Justice” as you proclaim yourself to be, just a vindictive scragg out to derail Craig’s work”

    Thanks, interesting, as I’ve learnt a new word:

    “Scragg ; A whore-ish person that’s not good looking and is sometimes two faced or just a Total bitch. You would use it to describe and insult another person.”

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scragg

  85. Macky, go on the rampage against hundreds or thousands of government employees in the US and all over Europe who perform or have performed functions similar to Craig’s job in 1990-1991. Oh I forgot, you’re completely fair and logical, so you’re already doing all that, and still finding time to comment here purely to further our education. Thanks, I’m so grateful.

    Really Macky, what good would it have done? “Unheard-of government employee quits job, claims Syria not Libya did Lockerbie but can’t produce any proof, says his job keeping weapons out of Iraq is immoral”.

    Still, I suppose it’d have kept him “clean” in your eyes, not that you’d ever of heard of him, and not that he’d ever have had a blog for you to comment on. Jeez. What an idiot you are, and so full of yourself.

  86. Clark; I suggest the breakdown was earlier than the firing. Mid-life crisis is what led him to desert his wife and children for a lap-dancer. Subsequent events led to the tipping over.

  87. “Fred, 3:37 pm; are you saying Craig was “the Liberal candidate for Bolton”? Craig stood as an independent in Blackburn, but only to run against the man who had him sacked from Uzbekistan, Jack Straw.”

    I stand corrected.

  88. Clark; “Really Macky, what good would it have done? ”

    He had all these long drawn out years to shout about this, especially after he made the headlines.

    “Still, I suppose it’d have kept him “clean” in your eyes”

    Moral character & consistency is important; so if somebody like Blair or Straw now publicly repents & sets up “Human Rights Activist Blog”, we should all starting him treating as morally & intellectually infallible ?

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