143 thoughts on “General Discussion – 2

  1. I thought that Squonk had had more than enough of Clark and Glenn on the old thread.

    Getting ahead with changing the name of Fort Rucker, Confederate Army colonel rebel. to my father.

  2. Joe Biden is about to select Senator Kamala Harris as his running mate as he is to select me.

    She is a former District Attorney of San Francisco who might still be interested in what happened to FBI agent Steve Ivens when President Obama passed through Burbank on an election junket aka an assassination set-up which involved its Russian counsel and helped keep Biden on the ticket.

    He will probably select Susan Rice who knows where his bodies are buried, and will keep it that way.

  3. Squonk, my above comment posted really fast, but on enabling Javascript to get the edit function the page took nearly a minute to reload.

    Could it be that the Recent Comments plug-in has to interrogate the old General Discussion Thread database entries?

    Edit: this comment took nearly 30 seconds to get posted. I’ll disable Javascript again and see how long a test comment takes to appear.

  4. Test

    Edit: With Javascript disabled, “Test” above appeared quickly, in under about five seconds, but it was over 30 seconds until Firefox showed page load to be complete. Meanwhile the message read “Transferring data from squonk.tk”.

  5. Some here might find this interesting: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000l7pn

    —-
    Dr Fozia Hayat investigates the dangers of fake news and finds out what can be done to end reports which leave people fearful of coming to hospitals even when they’re seriously ill
    —-

    Heard it live yesterday. It includes an interview with some freak who works for the “defence” industry and runs a blog, and he explains how Covid-19 is activated by 5G which produces coagulants and so on. The doctor questions him and gets predictably nowhere. It serves to highlight the utter futility of trying to engage in a rational conversation with these denialists.

    Even more worryingly, people from the more ethnicky part of the community are disinclined to visit hospitals at all. One was brought in at deaths’ door and died very soon afterwards. The family accused the hospital of putting the patient to death with a lethal injection.

    A wise old hill-billy from West Virginia once pointed out to me that it’s impossible to reason a person out of a position, if they didn’t reason themselves into it in the first place.

  6. I think this is generally true because people rarely reason themselves about anything because they just accept a given, dubious position at the outset without thinking.

    This is illustrated by the pervasive use of treated waste water even for drinking in one way or another, causing the pandemic world wide which will stop when everyone develops an immunity to it or dies unless a vaccine is provided.

    Here in Connecticut 90% of the cases occur in populations doing so, and the rest happen because of not observing obvious precautions.

    The cure for the dilemma is just too expensive and socially upsetting to think about.

  7. Think Sir Angus Deaton getting the Nobel Prize for Economics is just an illustration of the problem. Who would expect a person with those credentials getting a prize for stating what’s wrong with the American medical system rather than a prominent doctor?

    Doctors should be committed to achieving general health no matter what the cost, and economists with capitalism’s concerns of wiil it work and sell. One cannot replace the other.

  8. Wonder if anti-Putin critic Anna Politskovskaya committed suicide in a Moscow elevator because the poor soul had just lost her husband Alexander, becoming a Russophobe icon thanks to the Washington Post – what so convinced Ivan Safronov that the Kremlin had assassinated his father that he became a spy for Washington.

  9. OK, I enabled Javascript for squonk.tk upon which NoScript reloaded the page, and I estimate it took just over thirty seconds before page load was complete.

    If my hunch above is right, with this comment the Latest Comments plug-in shouldn’t have to access the old General Discussion Thread section of the database, so page load should complete much faster. Let’s see; I’ll time it with Android’s stopwatch this time.

    Edit: Nope, much the same as before; page posts quickly and the top part displays, but then takes just over 30 seconds for page load to complete.

    Trowbridge, at the risk of igniting a flame war, why do you keep posting that covid-19 is transmitted by waste water?

  10. Because in medical research, especially the cause of a pandemic, drinking water 99.70 % safe isn’t good enough, as the virus could be in the missing .30%. Social science writes off such small quantities while they may be crucial in looking for the cause of a pandemic.

  11. I have a question / thought experiment.

    It could be that us humans are psychologically incapable of overcoming our tendency to competition, over-consumption, over-production and the consequent degradation or even complete destruction of the current ecosphere.

    Could nuclear war be the best “option” in this circumstance? Best for humans or best for the ecosphere, and is there a difference? What proportion of the nuclear arsenal, and how soon? Can global warming be offset against a move towards nuclear winter?

  12. In Connecticut, around 4,700 of the 4,900 people who have died from drinking treated waste water.

    Just a curious coincidence or the cause?

  13. It means almost 100% safe.

    Statements from the WHO about not having found the virus in treated water, and water claims about what common cleaning processes should do or inactivate are hardly adequate answers.

  14. What prompted you to focus on waste water treatment, and where is the 99.7% figure from and what does it represent?

    I don’t understand your first sentence at 22:33; it seems incomplete.

  15. Don’t understand the 22.33 sentence either as I don’t remember it and cannot find it. Did you invent it Clark?

    Not going to join your Flame War, Clark.

  16. Trowbridge, it says:

    “In Connecticut, around 4,700 of the 4,900 people who have died from drinking treated waste water.”

  17. Trowbridge, the best I can make of it is imagining a comma between “drinking” and “treated”, making it something like:

    “in Connecticut, of the 4,900 people who have died of alcoholism, 4,700 had either worked in waste water treatment plants or had treated waste water in their spare time.” But I’m almost certain that’s not what you meant.

    Ben, is this my Asperger’s showing itself again? If I’m missing something obvious please translate, because I’m completely stymied by there being two fatality figures in the sentence, 4,900 and 4,700, but only one condition; “drinking treated waste water”, leaving me with something like “what’s the difference between a duck?”, and hoping it’s not me that’s going mad.

  18. Fred: – Climate Change — Anatomy of a myth – Potholer 54 (a conservative):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU_AtHkB4Ms

    Atmospheric particulates caused global dimming lowering the global temperature, but by far, most scientific papers predicted that global warming due to greenhouse gases would be more significant in the longer term.

    “Fishy”? Your White Simon Webb seems to have a lot about Blacks and their history. I wonder if he gets that from Readers’ Digest too.

  19. I see what your problem is.

    Connecticut has eight counties, and 95% of the deaths occurred in the four counties with the nine treatment plants.

    How can you explain the one-sided distribution of the deaths without blaming the treated sewage?

  20. ‘“Fishy”? Your White Simon Webb seems to have a lot about Blacks and their history.’

    Simon Webb is a historian and an author, he has a lot to say about many things. He has written books about slavery both white and black he will have researched both most thoroughly I expect. He has written books on the history of Britain including the suffragette movement and British concentration camps during the Boar war.

    Waterstones has three pages of books he has written on a wide range of subjects.

    https://www.waterstones.com/author/simon-webb/38467/page/1

    Why do you call him “white Simon Webb” and why do you single out what he says about blacks and ignore what he says about everyone else? You aren’t calling him a racist because you don’t like what he says about climate change are you?

  21. Well what he said about climate science was as crap as the sources he drew it from. And over half of his talks look to be about Blacks. I watched one; it was crap.

  22. “How can you explain the one-sided distribution of the deaths without blaming the treated sewage?”

    My immediate guess would be population density. The counties with the highest population densities will have less water per person and therefore be more reliant on water treatment. And covid-19 spreads faster in higher population density. Probably also there are just lots more people in those four counties than the others. But that’s all just guesswork.

    If covid-19 were transmitting primarily through the water supply, social distancing and restrictions wouldn’t be so effective in arresting its rise.

  23. “We Thought It Was Just a Respiratory Virus: We were wrong”
    – UCSF Magazine (University of California San Francisco, Summer 2020)

    https://www.ucsf.edu/magazine/covid-body

    Especially for Node / Buster / Knowed / For Christ’s Sake Keep my Real Name Secret from the Elite’s Truth Suppression Liquidators / Only Joking:

    S. Andrew Josephson, MD, the Francheschi-Mitchell Professor, chair of UCSF’s neurology department, and a member of the Weill Institute for Neurosciences. “If the prevalence of infection is high, then almost any condition – a broken leg, if you will – you might conclude is associated with COVID-19.”

    – “As clinicians, we want to get information to our medical community and to the public as quickly as possible,” Josephson says, “but we have to be cautious about not making too big a deal of a little blip.”

  24. Population density shows that water is the source and transmitter of the virus, as air is generally most plentiful while water is rationed in all kinds of ways because of human use of it often wasteful ways.

  25. I’ve been looking at some write-ups of Simon Webb’s books; they look much better than the two YouTube videos I watched, so much so that it seems like a different person.

  26. Get a grip on yourself,Clark!

    Your link doesn’t work, and you have an unknowable answer to apparent conclusion

    Here is an interesting answer to a serious question.

    Why does Dr.Anthony Fauci say that the pandemic will never end?.Because it will only become less important when we all are immune to it or are made so. We will never kill it off because we are not attacking it, only protecting ourselves from it.

    The tens of thousands of wastewater plants will still be cranking it out someway.

  27. We know so little of the Virus and since we do know it survives the digestive tract and present in feces, its not a stretch it could survive in treated effluent becoming drink water.

    I don’t discount the possibility

  28. There’s a simple way of finding out whether it’s in drinking water or not. Test it.

    Anyone found a positive test from drinking water yet? Thought not.

  29. Here’s something that is interesting, though – pool testing.

    You take samples from ten people. Mix a component of each sample together, and test that. If it’s negative, then you know all ten people are clear. If it’s positive, you need to test each individual. At worst you will waste one test, at best you save nine.

    You can also take samples from 100 people and divide them into a grid, 10×10. Take 10 pool samples along the X-axis labelled 1-10, and another 10 across the Y-axis labeled A-J. When you find a positive on the X or Y, look along the X and Y coordinates to identify the suspect case.

    This works best when the likelihood of positive tests are low, and the dangers of a false negative is not critical (such as in a nursing home).

  30. Pool testing is a clever method for making limited testing facilities go further. I saw an article referring to its use in Ghana. I thought of using a binary test scheme; the grid array is better, and reminds me of Reed-Solomon error detection and correction, which is also very clever.

  31. I don’t discount covid-19 cross infection through water treatment, but really, what are the chances that all of the world’s water authorities and water companies have neglected to check whether standard water treatment destroys the virus? That all of the world’s health authorities and institutions have overlooked this possibility? That none of the world’s epidemiologists have noticed that outbreak patterns follow the water supply maps?

    But this is just something Trowbridge made up, and then pushed for weeks until I was foolish enough to mention it. Only Trowbridge knows why, and I’ll bet he won’t say; conspiracy theorists never do.

    Why do we tolerate this? The irony of the human condition is stunning. Human ingenuity develops something as fantastic as the Internet; search any subject, all the world’s knowledge available at everyone’s fingertips, like sci-fi, something I could only dream of when I was young. And it gives every human the ability to publish at no cost, breaking the stranglehold of the established gatekeepers, so what do we do with it? Inundate it with bullshit!

    The Internet Slum by John Walker:

    https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/netslum/

    I dropped out of my physics degree partly because, at the end of my first year, a list was posted of all the graduates and the jobs they’d been offered, and about 85% of them were off to work with companies making and/or developing weaponry. The US military developed the Internet and GPS. Some of my fellow students participated in that.

  32. He didn’t just make it up. He surmised based on the same incompetence or reckless disregard utilized by our Betters

    Is there evidence of covid testing of community water supplies?

    One would assume they test just out of a sense of caution but I think Trow would suggest the assumption makes one an ass.

  33. Until the glut in labs declines there is almost no reason to seek it without symptoms

    My clinic requires a test no more than 5 days before an appointment.

    However, the average test result is 10 days after., meaning that if negative then, you could be infected anew.

  34. Thanks to all European Leftists for their philosophical/political pushback on SHRUMP!!

    A damning documentary about Donald Trump that the US president “doesn’t want you to see” is getting released worldwide.

    Having been held back by legal threats from the Trump Organisation for the past four years, You’ve Been Trumped Too has been picked up for release, and will arrive less than three months before the 2020 US election.

    The documentary explores the “deeply troubling” confrontation between Trump and 96-year-old Scottish widow Molly Forbes half a decade after it’s discovered that the president’s workers shut off her family’s water supply while constructing a luxury golf resort near

    While investigating the case, director Anthony Baxter was arrested and put in jail, but the charges against him were thrown out. Police were then forced to issue him an apology.

    In a recent piece for The Guardian, Baxter described the release as “an important landmark for freedom of speech, independent filmmaking, and, most importantly, the accountability of the rich and powerful”.

  35. B: “One would assume they test just out of a sense of caution but I think Trow would suggest the assumption makes one an ass.

    Rather, the assumption that nobody thought about it makes one an ass.

    If someone (say Ben or Trow) took it seriously even for a moment, they could do a couple of searches: “Coronavirus in drinking water” for instance.

    Hot dang – someone has thought about it before, and public statements on the subject have been issued. Fancy that! Imagining that a few tests had been done – and continue to be done – is not that much of a stretch. Any shrieks of horror when positive tests on drinking water follow? Nope.

  36. ‘A damning documentary about Donald Trump that the US president “doesn’t want you to see” is getting released worldwide.’

    I can’t think why the documentary would harm Trump Ben, I don’t believe the average American voter is influenced much by what happens in a remote Aberdeenshire village, it could even gain him some votes.

    More likely it’s the Scottish government that doesn’t want us to see it.

  37. Thanks Ben for giving the discussion a semblance of rationality.

    I didn’t make up my claims. I was just dissatisfied with convenient official claims like the WHO that treated wastewater should see to the destruction or inactivity of the virus or the EPA one that current evidence shows that the virus being in treated drinking water is a low risk.

    I know it is as I drink it all the time as I am immune.

    And I am not testing any pool water as it is supposed to contain chlorine which one is advised not to drink.

    And the internet is a far worse swamp than John Walker noted in 2004 as every letter I have posted here has passed the pinwheel censor.

    Guess my critics here think that LHO killed JFK alone, Putin had Anna Politskovskya et al. assassinated, and the existence of space weapons is just another crazy theory.

  38. Trow – by “pool testing” I was not referring to swimming pools. Pool testing means gathering a group of people’s tests together (a pool of people), and testing them as one. Please see above for the explanation, 1/8 18:19.

    Maybe “group testing” would have been a better phrase, but I didn’t invent it. It actually seems to have originated with mass testing for syphilis among soldiers during WW-II. Test a combined sample from an entire platoon (say), and if that group/pool test is negative, there’s no reason to waste resources testing each platoon member individually.

  39. That clarifies that, but still no clarification of claims that drinking a deadly virus is low risk, or should be destroyed or inactivated by converting sewage into safe drinking water.

    That apparently is good enough for you but not me.

  40. I’m just collecting Trump artifacts Fred. Some people collect shells or butterflies..I like to stick pins into specimens of the worst species on the planet

  41. “Guess my critics here think that LHO killed JFK alone, Putin had Anna Politskovskya et al. assassinated, and the existence of space weapons is just another crazy theory.”

    This is what’s known as a Gish gallop.

    Trowbridge, avast! You’re becoming a parody of yourself! 😀

  42. Are the sewers safe?

    A series of ten explosions took place on April 22, 1992, in the downtown district of Analco Colonia Atlas in Guadalajara city, Jalisco state, Mexico. Numerous gasoline explosions in the sewer system and fires over four hours destroyed five miles of streets. Gante Street was the most damaged. By the accounting of Lloyd’s of London, the reported number of people killed was about 252 people although many estimate that the catastrophe actually caused at least 1000 deaths. About 500 to 600 people were missing, nearly 500 were injured and 15,000 were left homeless. The estimated monetary damage ranges between $300 million and $1 billion.
    […]
    – On April 19, Gante Street residents reported a strong stench of gasoline and plumes of white smoke coming out from the sewers to the City of Guadalajara. The next day, workers of the City Council and Civil Protection commenced two days of investigations in Gante Street; they found high levels of gasoline among other hydrocarbons, but announced it was not necessary to evacuate the area. At 10am on April 22, manhole covers in the street began to bounce and columns of white smoke started coming out of them.

    – At 10:05 on April 22, the first two explosions were recorded…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Guadalajara_explosions

    Weird old world, init?

  43. Here’s an interesting one…

    Who here can ride a bike? Either a bicycle or a motorcycle. Glenn, I know you can. I can too.

  44. FYI, Clark, your Gish gallop doesn’t work. No wikipedia links do.

    And what you call mine were all totally false claims.

  45. Wish the trouble of global sewers could be blamed on gasoline instead of small quantities of coronavirus put back in the world’s fresh water supplies in rivers, lakes, sounds and reservoirs. Now it’s just survival of the fittest.

  46. Indeed, Trow – being outdoors there is very little chance of getting C-19.

    Which makes it rather baffling why the UK government is spending taxpayer money to bribe people to dine inside restaurants. This “Eat out to help out” is not correctly named – it should be “eat IN”, because the discount only applies to customers dining in. For a takeaway, you get no discount, not a penny.

    Which is odd, because if it’s all about helping the hospitality industry (as claimed) a takeaway would help them out too.

    Why does the government want to usher people indoors, where masks definitely won’t be used, where they’ll be opening their mouths constantly while eating and yakking away, in the middle of an pandemic?

  47. Especially for Node / … [link]

    OK, I’ve read that, … now … especially for Clark:
    https://off-guardian.org/2020/08/03/americas-frontline-doctors-website-removed-after-viral-video-censored/
    (I’d have spared you the Off-Guardian link but surprise surprise, the video’s banned from youtube.)

    So here we have the problem – two sources of covid information contradicting each other. We all have to use our own judgement which sources to give credence to.

    I ask myself “Why would “America’s Frontline Doctors” knowingly put their careers and reputations on the line to say those things?” I cannot imagine a realistic motivation for them saying what they said other than a desire to inform the public of what they genuinely believe is a dreadful ongoing wrong. So are they deluded? They are educated, experienced and familiar with the day to day reality of dealing with covid – ie they are ideally situated to have an informed opinion.

    On the other hand, I can imagine a realistic motivation for other medical personnel being reluctant to voice their concerns (happy to expand upon this if asked).

    My question to you, Clark, is not about the substance of what they say, but … “Why do you think they are speaking out like this?”

  48. “America’s Frontline Doctors” is such a prestigious group, they set up their site an entire couple of weeks ago. It is now expired – the link in that off-guardian article referencing them shows a defunct site.

    It didn’t take much work to find articles looking into these doctors, many of whom do not practice, some are Trump activists, and some push bitcoin:

    https://gizmodo.com/who-are-americas-frontline-doctors-the-pro-trump-pro-1844528900

    At this point, Node, it’s your turn to devastate me with insults to my intelligence. Then you can go on to claim this as another of your magnificent victories. Such incredibly original moves almost makes me nostalgic for 1990s Usenet! 🙂

  49. Oh wow – I didn’t realise it included this nutcase:

    Dr. Stella Immanuel
    Immanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister, has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She has often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches.

    She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments, and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious. And, despite appearing in Washington, D.C. to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part not by humans but by “reptilians” and other aliens.

    Jeez, that’s one good source alright! A good source if you’re after a laugh – I’d heard about that lunatic last week, and thought even the most short-sighted denialist would have shied away from references that included her. I thought asking one of them here (like Node) what he thought of her would have been unkind. But Node cites her as an authority!

    Anyway, the whole list is in that reference I gave above (https://gizmodo.com/who-are-americas-frontline-doctors-the-pro-trump-pro-1844528900 ). Every one of those “experts” is a highly dubious source, to say the least. Read ’em if you care about truth, ignore it otherwise.

    What is is about these denialists, that they’re so blind or lazy to bother checking sources? Maybe they think everyone else is as stupid and lazy as they are. Or more likely, they don’t think that much at all. If it’s on the Internet, and they like what it says, by Christ it must be true.

  50. Iran is the worst example of its 250 wastewater treatment plants supplementing its natural water systems, especially its qanats, to produce particularly electricity, meet farming and industrial needs, and used in households.

    No wonder deaths are blooming, and the government is covering up the disaster as best it can.

  51. Why? Because they’re being paid to. May this year –

    WASHINGTON — Republican political operatives are recruiting “pro-Trump” doctors to go on television to prescribe reviving the U.S. economy as quickly as possible, without waiting to meet safety benchmarks proposed by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to slow the spread of the new coronavirus.

    The plan was discussed in a May 11 conference call with a senior staffer for the Trump reelection campaign organized by CNP Action, an affiliate of the GOP-aligned Council for National Policy. A leaked recording of the hour-long call was provided to The Associated Press by the Center for Media and Democracy, a progressive watchdog group.

    CNP Action is part of the Save Our Country Coalition, an alliance of conservative think tanks and political committees formed in late April to end state lockdowns implemented in response to the pandemic. Other members of the coalition include the FreedomWorks Foundation, the American Legislative Exchange Council and Tea Party Patriots.

    A resurgent economy is seen as critical to boosting President Donald Trump’s reelection hopes and has become a growing focus of the White House coronavirus task force led by Vice President Mike Pence.

    Tim Murtaugh, the Trump campaign communications director, confirmed to AP that an effort to recruit doctors to publicly support the president is underway, but declined to say when the initiative would be rolled out.

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/coronavirus/2020/5/19/21264399/pro-trump-doctors-reopening-economy-coronavirus

    Note that the American Legislative Exchange Council ALEC is in there. That’s the think-tank of which Atlantic Bridge was an offshoot – remember the Fox-Werritty scandal and Israeli-supported plot to foment war with Iran, which Craig busted with his FOI requests?

    Node – “We all have to use our own judgement which sources to give credence to.”

    No we don’t. We can use our own judgement directly upon the evidence, and all the “sources” ie. opinions can go fuck themselves. Unless the evidence itself is being distorted, and that implies a conspiracy that has to expand without limit, until you’re suspecting your own council workers and local medical staff must be “in on it”. Therein lies the path to madness.

    That’s why I exhort everyone, over and over, to read Bad Science. Science is about evidence, not about which “experts” to “trust” – nullius in verba. Science isn’t about trust; the whole point of science is to overcome the need for trust ie. faith. There are countless belief systems, “world views” and ideologies. The remedy is methodical scepticism.

  52. Node, I now have a question for you. Why are these “Frontline Doctors” publishing directly to the public, at political rallies no less, rather than in the scientific literature ?

    This is a recurrent theme. Wakefield’s MMR-autism hypothesis was promoted primarily with a couple of press conferences. All he submitted to the scientific literature was a case series about just twelve children, who had been collected by a firm of solicitors. Global warming denial is pushed straight to the public. In the US, Big Pharma advertise directly to the public, which is banned in the EU, and in the UK so far, but I can see that changing in the Brexit future.

    Are you going to tell me that the scientific literature is a conspiracy?

  53. Node, I’ve started watching the video you recommend. The first speaker eventually works towards the political points he wishes to make – all of them Right-wing. The second is Stella Immanuel; Glenn has highlighted some other very odd opinions she promotes, but I found this:

    “”We don’t need masks. There is a cure!” said Dr. Stella Immanuel, a licensed pediatrician from Houston. In one of the event’s most fiery speeches, Immanuel, who claims to have effectively treated 350 COVID-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine out of her medical clinic, but declined to provide data.”

    Paediatrician? No data? Hmmm.

    – “The event was hosted and funded by the Tea Party Patriots, a right-wing political nonprofit group led by Jenny Beth Martin, the group’s co-founder, who spoke at the news conference.

    – The group, which collects funds through two nonprofit groups and a political action committee, has raised over $24 million since 2014 to support Republican causes and candidates.”

    https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/dark-money-pac-s-coordinated-reopen-push-are-behind-doctors-n1235100

    Look Node, if you’re Right-wing, just say you’re Right-wing. If you’re not, stop pushing their nonsense.

  54. Clark.
    There is a campaign led by pharmaceutical companies to disparage Hydroxychloroquine (it is plentiful and costs pennies per dose). The main tactic is to associate it with Trump at every opportunity. This ignores the fact that it has huge support in the medical profession and the wider public.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB-_SV-y11Y

    Are you going to tell me that the scientific literature is a conspiracy?

    Certainly they can be duped by a conspiracy. As referenced in the video, in May the Lancet published a study claiming that HCQ used in hospitals to treat Covid-19 had been shown conclusively to be a hazard for heart death. The data allegedly covered 96,000 patients in 671 hospitals. The article got huge headlines and the WHO halted all trials of HCQ. Then an open letter from 200 scientists to the authors and The Lancet requested details of the data and an independent audit.
    https://zenodo.org/record/3862789#.XyibtBF7mit
    3 of the 4 authors retracted and the lead author was found to have a financial interest in HCQ’s rival drug, Remdesivir.
    The Lancet editor was quoted as saying “If this continues, we are not going to be able to publish any more clinical research data because pharmaceutical companies are so financially powerful today, and are able to use such methodologies as to have us accept papers which are apparently methodologically perfect, but which, in reality, manage to conclude what they want to conclude.”
    https://healthimpactnews.com/2020/editors-of-the-lancet-and-the-new-england-journal-of-medicine-pharmaceutical-companies-are-so-financially-powerful-they-pressure-us-to-accept-papers/

    Despite the study being discredited, trials of HCQ as a treatment and preventative medicine for covid have not resumed.

  55. Node is a most gullible conspiracy theorist
    Node is too lazy to check references
    Node never responds to tough points
    Node never acknowledges a genuine question
    Node promotes far-right nonsense furthering Trump’s whacked-out agenda

    Q: Am I missing anything here?
    A: Naah.

  56. Node, what you’ve just described shows the scientific community and scientific literature working as they should, exposing distorted research from the pharmaceutical companies.

    This does not show hydroxychloroquine to be a “cure”, as claimed. It does not mean “the economy should be reopened” as the concocted pro-Trump publicity group claims.

    The problems highlighted by the Lancet have been known in great detail for years. Ben Goldacre touches on them and lays the groundwork for examining them in Bad Science, and then goes into four hundred pages of intricate detail, plus solutions, in Bad Pharma.

    Until you read those books, especially the first one, you are way out of your depth. You seem to be assuming, like Paul Barbara does, that because “one side” is deceptive, the “other side” must be truthful. Well, me and Ben have news for you; capitalism gives everyone an incentive to compete against everyone else. Rather than there being just two “sides”, everyone has an agenda, and there are uncounted different types of bullshit.

    The Right’s bullshit agenda is to get everyone back out working and shopping, even if it spreads covid-19. If those “doctors” were serious about health rather than merely pro-Trump, they should be writing to the editor of the Lancet rather than trying to mislead the public.

    Wise up!

  57. Paediatrician? No data? Hmmm.

    Pharmaceutical companies won’t release full dataset? Hmmm.

    They even use the same techniques! No surprise if you’ve read Goldacre.

  58. Cowards and bullies who enjoy manipulating others with their passive-aggressive BS don’t ever “wise up”, Clark, you need to take your own advice here!

  59. what you’ve just described shows the scientific community and scientific literature working as they should, exposing distorted research from the pharmaceutical companies.

    What I’ve just described is medical policy being led by the media on behalf of big pharma.

    This does not show hydroxychloroquine to be a “cure”, as claimed.

    It shows that despite achieving promising results, tests of hydroxychloroquine were ended through fraudulent means before their effectiveness or otherwise could be established.

    Wise up!

    I’m not the one falling for the media’s cheap trick – “If Trump likes it it must be bad.” You are not being scientific, Clark, or even logical. You are so entrenched in your position – that only a big pharma vaccine can save us – that you are defending the corruption of medical research.

  60. I hope Squonk isn’t going to turn off comments because one of the fuckwits throws teddy out of the pram again.

  61. The gym I subscribe to is announcing a grand reopening on the 10th. Not sure I’m that keen to go. I do feel great sympathy for them, the business is pretty much ruined, and competition between them made margins small enough before all this started.

    They’re talking about lots of wipe-downs of equipment, plenty of hand sanitiser, markers on the floor to keep a 2M distance, and requests that people change/shower at home, use a one-way system and so on. A message showing lockers being cleaned and floors scrubbed is meant to assure us. They’re treating it like MRSA.

    However – I’m pretty sure C-19 is primarily transmitted by air, not from contact on surfaces. The amount of transmission outdoors seems negligible compared with mass contagion at large indoor events. It’s bad enough with people sitting quietly (in a cinema for instance). With large numbers of people breathing hard, as one generally does while working up a sweat, it’s very difficult to see how this can be done without a high risk of infection.

    I have to admit at being puzzled at this – why are institutions still behaving as if contact were the largest danger, when it appears – unless I’m totally wrong here – that aerosol transmission is the danger, as has been established for months.

  62. Glenn, I’m not denying that the virus is primarily transmitted by air. It’s also transmitted by water. And the strength of any transmission is what really counts.

    Stop beating around the bush.

  63. Node, if a treatment appears to show more harm than benefit, the medical ethical community has a responsibility to stop trials. But doctors and academics are free to raise their objections to such research in the scientific literature, which they did. Now you will need to be patient; the ORCHID trial is to be published pending peer review. There is the Brazil trial that showed harm; maybe it’s a good trial and maybe it’s compromised; these things will be hammered out in the scientific literature. There are probably dozens of lesser papers.

    “What I’ve just described is medical policy being led by the media on behalf of big pharma”

    That’s nonsense; the trial was published in the Lancet, and other parts of the scientific literature. It appeared to show harm, so the medical authorities responded to it, which was right. It doesn’t matter what other, non-scientific media published about it; the medical authorities had a responsibility to act on the scientific literature. Then the research was called into question, again in the scientific literature, so now you have to wait and see what happens next.

    I think that more progress would be made more quickly if the pharmaceutical giants didn’t routinely corrupt research; there are dozens of cases in Bad Pharma, sometimes harm doesn’t get exposed for years.

    But honestly, picking a “side” and then proselytising for it does more harm than good; you’re bound to end up in bed with one villain or another, and you’ve ended up with Trump! This, precisely, is why such publicity organs preach to the public, to get people like you, Node, acting as unpaid publicists for them.

    ‘I’m not the one falling for the media’s cheap trick – “If Trump likes it it must be bad.”’

    I have stated no position on hydroxychloroquine. I know fuck all about it. But unlike either Trump or the pharmaceutical companies, I don’t pretend to know about it. I have seen absolutely nothing about hydroxychloroquine in the broadcast media because I don’t watch it, but by searching I did find an investigative piece, based on a leak, exposing “Frontline Doctors” as a partisan political group constructed for political publicity purposes, whereas you “fell for” their “cheap trick”.

  64. Glenn – “why are institutions still behaving as if contact were the largest danger[?]”

    Because they can be seen to be doing something about that without having to lock a gas mask onto each customer’s face.

    All these activities should be encouraged to move outdoors. Retail should take to street markets. Legislation should be enacted to facilitate this. All our urban space has massive, massive car parks, because of the centralisation caused by tax favouritism towards Big Business. Reverse it! Increase tax rates with market share. A revival of local retail and facilities, less transport and travelling, less noise, pollution and traffic danger, more local employment, less cross-infection, and use all that wasted car park space for public activity. Revitalise our communities, currently dormitories.

  65. Indeed Clark. Also, can you imagine how much more space we’d have were it not for cars lining either side of the street, besides driving up and the centre of them? Plenty of space to socially distance, have outdoor tables and so on…. nah, the car has to be king.

    And I wish you’d stop allowing yourself to be trolled like this. You cannot reason with someone determined to deny fact and reason, and all you’re going to achieve is getting this blog closed for comments again. Do you actually think you’re going to get an admission of truth from this freak Node? I took you for a realist. On what planet is some idiot like that going to say “Oh, Clark – you’ve finally explained it to me! Thank you, I see the light!”

  66. Glenn, it’s the “news” media’s fault that people confuse science with politics, so it’s ironic that I get accused of falling for the media’s “tricks” – most of it is just stupidity rather than a clever ruse. Look at Luke Harding; he goes to Russia and gets freaked out because the ‘phones are faulty and the cleaner opened the window while he was out; it just has to be a sinister intelligence agency plot – conspiracy theory is contagious 😀

  67. … so now you have to wait and see what happens next.

    I already know what happens next. We’ll pay billions to use Remdesivir instead and in a year or two Ben Goldacre will include the sordid tale in his latest book and you’ll buy it and tell me that’s why you know more than me about corruption in Big Pharma.

    … and you’ve ended up with Trump!

    I was discussing a medicine. In my mind it has nothing to do with Trump. The fact that you can’t think of hydroxychloroquine without connecting it to Trump is a measure of the MSM’s influence over you. In advertising, it’s called an association technique. It can be a positive or a negative association, depending on the emotion they want to arouse. Some people are more susceptible than others.

  68. Interesting, Trow. Have you found any cases where C19 has been positively identified as being transmitted by water?

  69. Hope everyone took my advice to buy gold six months ago? Nearly 30% gain. Don’t all thank me at once!

  70. Node, I wouldn’t have mentioned Trump, but that you linked to a video, which turned out to be a bunch of “doctors” who had been specifically recruited by Tea Party Patriots to support Trump’s political policies, the video having been promoted intensively by Trump-supporting Breitbart News. You seem to constantly mistake politics for science.

    It was you that brought Trump into it, by promoting his supporters, and by generally believing every piece of bullshit about covid-19 that the Right-wing social media propagandists have ever promoted – “it’s just a flu”, “it’s only as bad as flu”, “it’s all miscounting”, “it’s all to control everyone”, “the fatalities are all overdue for death anyway”; you swallow and regurgitate every last one, apparently merely because you perceive them as “alternative”.

    “I already know what happens next.”

    Psychic powers now? Or just the mundane over-confidence that comes with believing you’ve found secret knowledge?

    Obviously, you can therefore tell us all about dexamethasone… Yet somehow you’ve never mentioned it. But then neither have the Right-wing CT-seeding teams.

  71. Node, you’re a bully and a coward, which is why you taunt Clark and hide from me.

    Take your hero Trump’s other advice, and stick a powerful UV light up inside yourself, right where the sun don’t shine.

  72. I recall a famous line from Passage to India delivered by an enlightened Brahmin and the response from his Western associate who was appalled at his insensitivity..

    “Shouldn’t we do something?”

    “You can do what you like but the end will be the same..”

    Non interference with destiny seems the wisest action, or should I say non-action?

  73. Node – “If I mentioned cigars, would I be bringing Winston Churchill into it?”

    If you had promoted the publicity material of a team recruited specifically to promote Churchill and cigars, as a way of popularising Churchill’s overall policies, then yes, very much so.

    I would never have heard of “America’s Frontline Doctors” but for your link.

    “Calm down”

    Mind your own business and don’t cast aspersions about my emotional state. You’ll never get readmitted to Craig’s the way you’re going on (#56932).

  74. Hey Trow – what do you think about this huge explosion in Beirut – an innocent accident? Bit suspicious, don’t you think?

  75. Well,’Do no Harm’ is part of it Glenn.

    If you can’t see the future clearly how can you predict the cascading effects of your action?

    Good intentions may turn out differently if you can’t. Ever arranged a blind date for a friend, thinking ‘these two are ideally suited’?

    It may seem like a good idea to force an outcome but is it really?

  76. Ben, from the paper upon which the article you linked to was based:

    According to interviews with the local villagers and
    PA staff, most of the declines of the four carnivore species occurred during the 1990s. Leopard and dhole remained common until the late 1980s to early 1990s before they experienced abrupt population declines. Potential factors in the declines of these species include habitat loss by commercial logging, direct poaching of both the carnivores and their ungulate prey, and possible infection and spread of contagious diseases via domestic animals. Regardless of the causes of the declines, these carnivore populations have evidently disappeared from many of their historical ranges.

    – A series of conservation policies initiated since the late 1980s, such as the Wildlife Protection Law (1989), the National Conservation Project for the Giant Panda and Its Habitat (1992) and the Natural Forest Protection Program (1998), helped restore the giant panda population but have not resulted in maintaining populations of large carnivores throughout most of the giant panda distribution range. These different outcomes might result from these species’ different habitat needs.

    So maybe it wasn’t so much saving the panda that depleted the other species as not protecting them from other human activity.

    The article is here:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1260-0.epdf?sharing_token=GTy_b-NucTsh2E1Mlxq_LtRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0M_VWhFurCXJgl4MFW_OBP4xg2E6LdnLsN0_1MEIUVeuJhnStc7XTKotqYg4EVfHVXByIDqpQAwh198JfpiFm0Ta213BETrZxHM7byZ224LuQES56kp8e5BjPbqDfewdZA40_FDnnQssfW33oSJn1-dx3EkSFOHosbjq440ENIAZFiHsliCeiv91vAzYWtHHA42mckIIgNP-mojTqSN9DpeSZEi34Kmt02l33g5ZjOkU_gat0S6h3-we4wDL8eHwjr24_5nQg0st239jL1W6yxc11jAFiN2S4CZJkkzgxwyww%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.theguardian.com

    Sorry about the horrible URL; the basic part is only the bit up to the question mark,

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1260-0.epdf

    but that article is behind a paywall, so you probably need the “sharing_token=” and the “tracking_referrer=” parts to read it without a subscription.

    We each only stop doing anything after we die; non-intervention is as much a choice as any other. There are also some nasty words for it, like negligence and vacillation.

  77. Why the hell the “sharing_token” needs to be larger than the square of the number of elementary particles in the visible universe is the legally protected intellectual property of Springer Link inc. Let us all spare a moment to remember Aaron Swartz.

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